This question was triggered by Parvati's and Viji's comments in my previous post. I used to say to my mother, that there is no use of marrying, and its better for me to become a saint(??) ! But my outlook completely changed when I came to UK. I know a couple of aunties in their late 50's here and they are still single. They tell me that it is a big mistake on their part not to have married and they advice me to get married! They regret their decisions now. That too in UK, loneliness easily creeps in and you become mad after sometime! Parvati points out that marriage and children are not a must for a women and it is not the end of their lives. Even though I agree with her - I have to say that if a women prefers to be single, then she must make sure that she is occupied for the rest of her life! Else loneliness sets in! But still, I am not sure whether there is some sense of satisfaction at the end! Does she get a sense of completeness? - I am not sure!
This applies to men also. I can never be alone without women in my life! Women(my mother,chitthi,aunty, my sister) made me what I am today, and cant even imagine my life without a woman! I can always remain single till my mother is alive - but after her - there would be a huge emptiness in my life, which could be filled only by a wife! If I am to remain single, then I should either become someone like Ramana Maharishi, Atal Bihari Vajpayee or Abdul Kalam and remain occupied without feeling any loneliness! But I am not sure whether I can become like them!
So according to me, marriage is a definite must for both men and women provided their wavelengths match - else its better not to marry!.
Please do put in your thoughts :)..
posted by Gnana Kirukan @ 12:05 AM
88 Comments:
Marriage is just a ritual. It is more of the love that need to exist between two hearts. True Love can make you live in synch with person whom u love even though you do not live under the same roof.
So the word "Marriage" in my dictionary literally, is just a farse that is done to show the world that two people are living together. Coming to the core meaning of marriage, I think many marriages in this world are just suffering, people trying to pull along because they have to, especially that happens a lot in the Eastern cultures. Even though the frequencies do not match, even though there are ideological clashes often, even though there does not exist any physical, intellectual and spiritual union of the hearts, they still continue. It is a shame on the system of marriage. Especially India needs a big redefinition of the term "Marriage".
Also very rarely there is a matching of frequencies, initially it is just but attraction, then ego show off and then ideological adjustments. Then Kids come in, focus changes from each other to the kids, and then the saga continues.....Most of them suffering in the pangs of attachment. Detached love does not exist in many marriages, it is mostly imposition and also trying to change the other person based on our needs and choices.
All these I am saying, being myself in a marriage and coming out of one. I had relationships after coming out also, seem to tell me only one thing, all these are transient and Ego gratification processes. I have also closely observed many marriages of my friends in India and USA.
True Love is something that can transcend all these social procedures. True Love is more spiritual that is unconditional and with no expectations, In such love a person can actually live alone.
With regards to loneliness, it initially will be painful, but it is because we all are conditioned to live together. But then out of that loneliness arises a need and purpose above one self, to make a positive difference in the world we live in.
Coming to the concept of living together, it is very much possible and many people are adopting that these days, and it is just a matter of time before we see that becoming more popular. Initially there are gonna be hurdles in the society, but again change is the law of nature.
With regards to old age, I know many people atleast in the western world, where they keep fit, exercise, meditate and stay fit and healthy till the last breath. I have seen my 2 grandfathers in India taking care of themselves inspite of being alone till their last breath. The tailored their lives in a way that there are not many depedncies. Infact one of them married another woman at 68 after his first wife passed away and had a great company with that women and were there for each other.
Infact I started feeling I need a marriage at 60 :-) where it is just companionship rather than gratification of Egos and rituals...How many marrriages are union of SOuls??
Life and surroundings change so very fast, that the person who is thought to be a life long companion just disappears one fine morning.
Thus family is an institution that puts meaning into life.
If somebody can add meaning to themselves in some other way, well and good, but i have not come across many such folks.
Parvatiji,
I agree with you in every respect, that it is the people that need to change.
But how many of these people are willing to change?
Also what I want to convey is, "what Marriage is supposed to be is not what it is Today."
We add too much of baggage to it.
Like u said, Do we have a soulful union with God? Not majority in this world. How many in this world go within themselves to find the GOD? It is again the same with rituals performed in the name of GOD. How many know the true esence of those rituals? How many transcend those rituals to find that God is within?
How many parent-child relationships, understand child as a apiritual being rather than an ownership medium of imposing what parents feel?
How many teacher impart to the students the true essense of education?
Similarly, How many couples find the true essence of marriage?
Yes, Marriage system that existed in the ancient societies were ideal. But in the transitioning phase of hybrid worlds, we are confused about relationships as the world is running towards material pleasure than soulful.
All depends on individual perception and approach. We should not blame Marriage, which is nothing but an arrangement / bond created between those involved. Getting adjusted and involved in the relationship, depends on each and every individuals attitude and commitment to that institution.
If people want to be carefree & non-committal, they won't enjoy the essence of the relationship created by the Marriage. Some sort of maturity & accomodative nature are required to sail the relationship smoothly. Shouldn't feel that we are giving up our freedom because of marriage. We need to prioritise what is important to go ahead further. "Give and take" is one of the keys for a successful marriage. If people are not ready, they shouldn't enter this institution.
I don't want to enter into the subject of having kids or loneliness in the old age etc., just to validate whether Marriage is required or not. Marriage should not be considered as a tool to avoid loneliness or just to have kids. If we enter it with those aims, then the essence will not last long. After achieving these two objects, the life may become stale.
If we expect our partner to understand our needs and priorities perfectly, the same thing has to be reciprocated. If we don't have the mental strength to step into others shoes and evaluate the situaution, the relationship may not be as sweet as expect it to be.
Arjuna.. You had mentioned that marriage should take place only if wavelength matches. Sometimes, it so happens that people fine tune their wavelength after marriage to set the things right. It depends on their accomodative nature.
Beautifully said Parvatiji.
What I have seen is, that our people beahviours here from parents, elders to peers who do not see marriage as a spiritual union, had costed many lives, mental peace in many of my close circles too. And even the couples find it so difficult to fix it, do not have the support systems, stength and are made to brood in the fabricated marriage system.
Proper education of marriage system by parents and elders, what to expect of marriage, what it is intended to be, how it can be a mutually enriching experience, all these things would be nice to be educated to the younger generation.
Finally, Ofcourse, there is no evolution without destruction. It is all part of the process:-)
Give the best shot and let the result to the supreme....
with best wishes
Suman
Dear Arjuna,
Simply put, the whole purpose of taking birth is to attain the feet of the glorious lord. Try to make yourselves comfortable with the infinite being (aatman) and its Lord.
By attaching yourselves to anything that is material, you are definitely slowing down your pace. Still, if the situation forces someone to marry (may be for progeny, which i feel is not the need of the hour :) , it is possible to continue being spiritual but it is very difficult .Both the husband and wife should be like that. Hence, I think that by staying a pure brahmacharin brings not anything but the highest form of jnana ,bhakthi and karma not in countless births but in few years .
In fact, if you try being an Akhanda Brahmachari , an unbroken celibate for 12 years, you can realize god without much effort. says the sastras.
Hanuman , Adi Sankara , Bheesma pitha were all life long Brahmacharins
By chosing to marry, one is taking a longer and painful path to realize god.
Your thought of "i cant be without a women" is just an effect of MAaya. Please be careful about such things.
Merger urselves with God by the nine ways of bhatki and constantly keep seeking the Aatman.
Take this as a friendly opinion on my part of being ur good friend.
Wonderfully said by the Lord himself.,
Well said Krishna.
But it is very tempting to resist Maya, that is the nature of
Maya :-)
Suman
Arjuna,
Good that you want to marry.
But you have raised pertinent questions. For which I guess there are sufficient arguments to take up on both sides. There is no point getting into an argument is my opinion.
My dad quotes George Bernard Shaw on this. Once when Mr. Shaw was asked, "Whether it's better to get married or not?". He replied, "You will regret both ways".
So, let me sign-off with this. Looks like this comments column is going to develop into an interesting space for thesis on this topic.
marraige venuma ,venama ithukku oru blogu,evalo periya commentu thaangaga mudiyala. naangalam kalyaanam panniveika maataangalanu alaiyaroom ,enga kastam ungalukku enga theriapooguthu.
Arjuna- Why blood ?? Same blood...
nan indha aattathukku varla pa :(
Arjuna,
nice discussion, couldn't help joining.
Parvatiji (as others seem to call you)
I concur with all that you say... clear and balanced views are always required about anyhting.
I think you are one smart person capable of making the most out of life,best wishes.
dear Krishna,
to look at marriage (or even love (platonic as well as sexual) ) as antithetical to spiritual development is nothing but a wrong conclusion.
Hanuman, Sri Sankara and Bheeshmaacharya had their reasons and were exceptions.
the word Brahmacharya is widely misunderstood.
I am a Brahmachaarin and I have postponed decisions regarding marriage until I complete 32 years of age (reasons already disclosed to our friend Arjuna). however I do not think being single is a solution and definitely not a spiritual excercise.
I do not look at human love (be it the conjugal , parental or fraternal variety) as an impediment to spiritual progress. I would request you to give up such views as they are not logically demonstrable and also unfair to women.
our Acharya told me strictly that the Sri Vaishnava Sampradaayam extols the virtues of harmonious living
besides
Narayana and Mahalakshmi Thaayaar constitute the Supreme Brahman as one (they are comprehended eternally as one being) - I take them as an example and put forth the thesis that a true and mature marriage can indeed be good to one's spiritual development.
as for the arguments on Maya I am of the humble opinion that I have refuted the construct of Maya quite a few times and upheld the Visishtaadvaitc conception of Maya as Prakriti or nature.please try to understand, if Sri Krishna Vasudeva wanted a world full of Brahmacharins then he would have stated categorically - however he is known and loved as the ideal householder.
Sri Rama and Sitamma were an ideal couple- emulate them when you enter the institution of marriage.
despite all its shortcomings I am in support of marriage and trust me I am someone who can survive isolation on mars without cracking up. yet I advocate marriage - why ?
cause it is in its own right required for a complete life.
and Like Arjuna says I cannot imagine a world without women (sisters, cousins, mothers and so on). I am indebted to several women for their positive contributions towards making me what I am.
besides Bondage and samsaara can only affect one of incomplete understanding. if your understanding of vedanta is perfect you can very well get married and love your wife with greater understanding than ordinary men.
I know this is going to precipitate a debate....
anyway Arjuna,
please sit and decide this by yourself and you'll see the weight of my arguments -
you are not going to attain the spiritual summum bonum by merely turning your back on women. so please decide in favour of marriage and make it work - nothing else can complete your life spiritually.
SARVAM SRIKRISHNAARPANAMASTHU!
Guys - Am I seeing comments or different blogs in here :)) - LOL
Awesome discussion guys especially parvathi! She is in full form! Thanks a lot parvathi and all of u guys! Now, give me some time - I am in a soup here! I messed up on something and now I am in a real bad soup!I ordered a treadmill and they have delivered it - my GOD its massive and there is no place to put it now! So I am trying to pack back the 130 odd kg treadmill all alone for the past 4 hours!!! So that is y i am not able to respond to the comments!!
Let me solve that problem and come back! :(
So till then u guys continue :)
Comeon parvathi u can do it :)
I am the "JI" culprit :-)
Anand, you are right, there is a saying in Telugu "Bhogi kaani vaadu Yogi kaadu". Without becoming a Bhogi you cannot become a Yogi :-)
The only thing that does not appeal me in the word "Marriage" is the hipocrisy that people have added to that over a period of time. Otheriwse marriage can enhance a spiritual union.
Suman
Parvati,
fine and thanks
SARVAM SRIKRISHNAARPANAMASTHU!
Sumonk ,
the rightful progression of Purushaarthaas is Dharma, Artha, Kama and Moksha - no skipping stages here...!
as for hypocrisy.. well it is true that the world is full of such people. we can try to be honest without looing at other's faults - saves a lot of time, energy and gives you a fresh perspective on life.
the hypocrisy that you are referring to may exist but in our lives we can keep it out if we exercise discriminative intelligence and honesty.
SARVAM SRIKRISHNAARPANAMASTHU!
Parvathi ji - I need to have Parle G biscuits before commenting :))
No - I am not the culprit - my father is the one! :( - he ordered over the phone seeing the dimensions and only when these guys delivered - we saw how huge it was!!Infact, I lifted the treadmill from one end - and the other end hit my room door - and the room door is broken now :( - I am in a real mess and I need to somehow pack it up else I cant get a refund :( - I just want this stupid treadmill to get out of my house!
Forgot to add - I put the treadmill on the floor and instead it landed on my foot and my right foot is in a bad mess now! What a day!
Parvati - First of all - once again thanks for taking so much interest in my blog and responding with full vigor - I appreciate it :) - thanks for ur concern :) - Also I have blogrolled u :)
Now coming back to the institution of marriage - I completely agree with ur points :) - but let me tell u some examples that have I have come across..
1)My classmate (a girl) married to an IITan in US as soon as she finished her UG degree. After she got married - she went over to the US with loads of dreams! There in US, she found out that this guy was a psycho!! A maniac! He used to torture her so badly. He used to lock her in the room and go to work! Her friends found this out - they somehow rescued her - sent her back to India and now she is divorced. She is in the UK doing her PhD now!
So if u see - marriage has virtually spoilt her life isnt it? If u see the actresses - not a single actress is happy now - all get divorced! In their cases - its the sense of Ego that plays the part!
2) As Suman pointed out - its very rare to find the best match! I have not seen a single husband/wife who have not quarralled or happy!There is always a conflict of interest which leads to unnecessary quarrels!Many tell me - its better not to marry rather than getting married - as Adi pointed out in his comments! So I guess the entire perception is "ikkaraiku akkarai patchai"
Marriage can help some or destroy some.
that makes me wonder - marrying after 50 would be better than marrying early - since only when the old age sets in - ur ego dies away isnt it :)
when u marry in the old age - u are more concerned about companionship rather than other things!
Arjuna vuku Marrage a!!. Hai ya joly. asin's kaiveda matingala.:)
sumon - thanks for popping in and giving ur comments :)
But is it possible for ppl to live together all their life without getting married?
The main reason y the old ppl here in UK end up in nursing homes is that they dont have anyone to look after them! These ppl enjoy their lives by changing their partners very often and in the end they dont have anyone! So what I am trying to say is living together could lead to complacent attitude and there would not be any serious relationship! U always think - OK if she doesnt fit in - I can always go for someone! So this attitude will always make things worse!
So, marriage is very essential to put things in order.
Ram - very valid points :)..
TJ- "Thus family is an institution that puts meaning into life. "
Well said :)
Parvati -
"Why dont we extend this argument to everything else, and discard everything else too? Not just marriage, but every institution of society?
Why dont I leave jobs which are not perfect for me and be a permanent job hopper? "
Awesome questions - too good! These questions make sense! We learn to live adjusting our selves to things which we dont live! We live in countries where there are corruption!We live in countries where there are wars,famine,distress! We continue working in a company even if our managers torture us!
But why are we not able to adjust and live together with a partner? Awesome - eye opening comment from u Parvathi :) - Great!
Adi - :)) - Bernard shaw is quite an intelligent and a diplomatic guy :))
awakeningcoma - u want to marry? tell me - I know a load of girls who are looking for maapilais :))
viji - where are trying to run away ? :)) - no way - u better respond to parvathi's comments :))
Krishna - I guess Anand has answered u superbly :)
I think we need to spiritually evolve for being proper bramacharis! I really dont think some tom,dick or harry can live a life of a proper brahmachari. So for these ppl - marriage is a must for spiritual evolution.
Anand - first of all - I am very sorry to say that u have been beaten by parvathi when it comes to the length of ur comments :)) - she has beaten u by a mile :)) - I thought u were the no 1 guy when it comes to writing massive comments - but parvathi has taken the title now :)) - so my heartfelt condolences :))
Well said Anand :) - Love is different from bondage..We can love anybody but we should never be bonded to them! But its quite a hard task to achieve isnt it?
Parvati - I have put separate comments - so please do check all of them :)
en sogam - ungaluku siripa iruku :))
jeevan - when u said that - I am reminded of chinna thambi - "hai ennaku kalyanam" :)) - no pa - I am not marrying now - I need to wait for asin to finish all her films ;)
Anand - "please sit and decide this by yourself and you'll see the weight of my arguments -
you are not going to attain the spiritual summum bonum by merely turning your back on women. so please decide in favour of marriage and make it work - nothing else can complete your life spiritually."
That is very encouraging - so I am going to fall in luv again :))
parvati - now I can access ur site easily - I have added ur link in my blog - check the "Arjuna Visits" section (right hand side - scroll down) - u can see ur name :)
Arjuna,
hmm. I'm really mad now(lol) wait for my next post and the comments it will generate (lol).
all the best buddy
SARVAM SRIKRISHNAARPANAMASTHU!
Hmm too big discussion ... but if you think on this issue a lot it finally deduces to and stupid illusion with no base ... Its only the Ego and desires that makes someone say that I need to marry ... the desires are nothing but illusions created for continuation of species and karma ... nothing other than that
this is too much of a debate, Arjuna... 20 line-kku 48 commentaa? hmmm.. marriage makes everyone to talk a lot.. rather I would say 'pulambal'.
Parvati - ur welcome - I shuld thank u for spending ur time in my blog :)..thanks..
Ok asin is my favourite actress and I was just kidding to jeevan. How can I ever marry Asin? I cant even dream about it :))..Maybe I culd turn up as a producer or director and direct some films with her - then I may have a chance :))
Ok Asin means - A+Sin -> where A in sanscrit means not and sin u know = so Asin means Pure! This is the explanation she gives :))
She is a very pretty actress-hmmmmmmm!
U can check my prev posts on her :) - for pics :)
End of the day parvati - if u see - being sorrow or happiness - everything depends on ur Karma isnt it? So if u r destined to get a good wife - then u wuld! If not -u wuld end up getting a bad one! So we cant really control that! They say - Guru,Mother and Wife and all pre-determined! I have the greatest Guru, I have the greatest mother - that also means I shuld have the greatest wife :P - but I never have any hopes (the only hope is she must be quite pretty like my asin :)) ) and my only concern is that I shuld be a good husband!
But again - nothing is in our hands..but where do I go and fall in luv ? :)) this is again raising another interesting topic - so does that mean luv marriage is the only solution for a happy married life - since how can we just marry someone without knowing them properly? Since for us to love someone - if u c we love someone since they are giving us joy isnt it? We dont love Binladens or Bushs. We love someone since they behave as we expect them to behave isnt it? So when someone doesnt behave according to our principles - how can we fall in luv with them? Thus in arranged marriages - we are not sure whether they wuld behave according to our wishes - say for eg: as Ram points out we can fine tune to their wavelengths - but that too for a certain extent - if my wife expects me to take her to a discotheque and have fun - I am not going to do it - since I am not at all interested in it! If she expects me to drink - I am not going to do it! So there are certain integrities and principles that needs to be preserved - we cant just leave it for the sake of marriage isnt it? So how can this situation be handled in arranged marriages where we dont know what to expect from ur partner?
Sorry parvathi - I went to take a nap since I was damn tired with this treadmill fiasco! So I wasnt able to reply to ur comment asap :(
Anand - ur scaring me LOL!
saravana - as usual u write complex stuffs which can be deciphered by higher beings like Parvati,Anand and Co :))
ram - I guess marriage is the most important thing that needs to be discussed today and I am also surprised to see the no of comments :)
arjuna, what happened to the previous post (sarath and manisha one?) Self-censored-a? ;)
From my age 11 till 22, I was strongly against marriage.. I made everyone know about it and used to argue for hours.. Then, it changed after seeing 'her'. Sometimes I think of what made me to think against marraige and what made me change that later. Chemistry inside the body plays a big role. Seekkiram kalyanam pannikkonga!!
raju - no I deleted it since I am under immense pressure to write meaningful posts - u saw the response for this blog right :)) - I dont think I can put my funny posts anymore here!
Me - sikiram kalyanam? :)) - its so hard for me to get married since I am quite a complex unpredictable character! So I have to be very careful - moreover I am not going to marry now - after 2 yrs I may consider :))
ARjuna ,
I enjoyed all the comments .Different kinds of people with different thoughts -Intresting .As a guy abt to get married and with some expereinces of interacting with good sanyasins ,i thought i can share my expereinces .
Forget extereme cases....
1.It is just impossible for two people on planet to have same wave length -Just impossible .But our live's orientation can be similar .\-there are few fundamental thoughts which both the boy and girl need to agree - Like belief in concept of family ,respect for elders ,few common spiritual intrests .The direction needs to be the same but the level can be different .
2.As i have understood in this short span ,most of us expect love and not give love .Its always our expectations which hold the Key .Whatever, our expectations keeps changing with time ,due to different expereinces in life .
3.Its is OUR responsibility to love ,take care and feel that ur spouse is no different from you .It has to be like a mother -son relationship .A Mother sees her son no different from her .She is happy when he goes higher in life ,gets salary ,move s to places .But it is when we see our wife as somebody different from us ( in LOVE ) we suffer .Having said this ,i did not mean that ur wife has to be similar in every taste of urs .She has to compromise a bit and you have to .There is no way one can expect success without any compromise .We learn to forgo our ego for the betterment of relationships .
4.Give Some time .Immediately on the third month of ur marriage ,don't conclude .Give a year or two .She will change or You will change or Both will change .I feel that our generation is very impatient of what we want and not compromise for even small things .
5.It is TRUE that marriage may be hurdle to spirtual progress .But lets be honest to ourselves .If we want to have agirl by our side ,feel complete ,feel satisfied - lets accept that we want this and go into marriage .Also ,when you are done with your lower desires for some time ,you WILL move to higher things easily .
6.Maya ,what scriptures say ,what some XYZ saint has said - These have to be understood in our mental capability and applied suitably .As Swami Vievakananda says ,Religious Hypocriscy is the bane of mankind .WIll you be surprised if i say that even in Ramakrishna Mutt they do not discuss abour Brahmacharya in common -Its customised for each sanyasin in a different way .In the same way ,spiritual meaning of words like maaya etc have to be understood in our own way .( not twisting it to our needs ,though)
6.Stopping all advises ,i will say why i went to marriage ...( koncham honest a sonna nalal irukkum illaya ??)
-> I do feel that sex without any relationship and value is dangerous .Beyond apoint it is difficult to control the physical urge for a normal human being like me .So i would like to have a disciplined life with meaning and as well as satisfy my physical urges.
-> I do feel a vaccum in me and sense of Non -Value if i just go for hunt /Dating with multiple girls .This kind of vaccum creates all mental troubles .I thought it will be better to go for a resonable girl ,accept her -ves and move ahead in LIFE than leading this kind of life.
->I feel a sense of completion if i have a girl with me .A happiness when i sacrifice something for her and she for me .
-> I tend to learn how to love somebody ,without being possessive .This quality will help you in all matters .But this takes some years .
In my case ,i discussed my expectations completely with my fiancee before saying a YES .Its much better to start with a yahoo chat ,speak over the phone and then meet .Let me frank here - Had i seen my fiancee first ,i would have forgot what i need to talk then ;)
Pardon me...I don't think Marriage is essential / necessary ..however you want to call it.
I am married with 2 daughters and whenever my wife and I discuss this, we always say 'never' in our next lives.!
But then it might be just me and my wife.!
There are a lot of commitments/adjustments required for both men and women after marriage. Add to that the culture/society you were born/raised and you have another handful / sackful of issues to handle. I bet many people would agree.
And there is no guarantee your spouse would stay with you all your life to take care of your loneliness.!! Same with Kids.!
Though it is fun and heartwarming to have kids.! It is difficult to raise them...I know that 'cause I have 2.
But there is always the other side and they'll say ...Marriage is all milk and honey.!
IMHO, a life partner is something, marriage/wife is something else.!! I'd rather have a partner.!
"Marriage - is it a must?"
NO !
Dear anand
At least for now, I am pretty sure that my only wish in life is to stay married to the divine nada brahman for the sake of the naadpriyana and for my aatman
jsut one clarification i need :)
u said "Sri Rama and Sitamma were an ideal couple- emulate them when you enter the institution of marriage"
If it is not possible for us to emulate the ideals of great bhakthas and people like Hanuman and Shankara, how can we emulate the most perfect couple?
Yes, if one has no escape from marriage , i totally agree with you that we should try our best to emulate the divine couple . That would an equally good or greater path to HIS thiruvadigal. but we can as well be a ideal brahmachaarin if we can be an ideal couple and see the DEVI in all women. Doesnt it seem likely????
Watever be the decision one takes / forced to take, I invoke the blessings of Sriman Narayana so that all of them progress vertically in a spiritual plane and not horizontally crawl in the material plane....
Om tat sat
Dear arjuna,
This is highly a personal issue but THINK THOUSAND TIMES before u do.. be sure that u are progressing spiritually even if u get married. Being like an ideal couple is just us difficult or perhaps more difficult that being a pure brahmacharin. Only if u are 101% sure that u would be like that ideal couple , go for it, else , give up the idea of marriage.
Folks
Also u should also have an ideal or (at least close to ideal) wife. If you can find such a girl , you are very blessed but think about the probabilites of finding such a girl. A girl that would support you spiritually without giving yield to the material world.
Hello,
Stepped across your post.. very true and well written article!
Mumbai Ramki - thank u so much for ur honest comments - ur comments were very valuable
"-> I do feel that sex without any relationship and value is dangerous .Beyond apoint it is difficult to control the physical urge for a normal human being like me .So i would like to have a disciplined life with meaning and as well as satisfy my physical urges."
I am not sure how Krishna would answer this :) - Is it possible for everyone to control their urges and become a brahmacharin?
Narayanan sir - that was a surprise comment from u :)..
I sometimes think like what u have said :) - I guess only Parvati can answer u :)
phoenix - OK :)
Krishna - ur still persistent in being a brahmachari :) - so u will never marry is it?
anon - thanks :)
Parvati - well said :)
I guess marriage is for lesser human beings like me :))
I think we all need to read Oscar Wilde seriously... Women marry because they are curious.Men marry because they are tired. Both get disappointed!! ;)
Chk out this 'The Hindu Metro plus' article of today with some live moments shared by two couples.. I bringing it in, due to the adjusting nature of the relationship, revealed by them.
Parvathi,
You said : because it disturbs the foundation and the very structure of our life.
How does it do that??? Your thoughts please???
Dear Arjuna, Krishna and Parvati,
let me say something to my dear friend Krishna first,
1. why can't we emulate Hanuman Sankara ..? good question...
but the answer is there in my previous comment-- please look , observe (as JK says) and you'll find the answer.
as for your notion that emulating the divine couple is difficult I would like to bring to your kind attention that Valmiki portrays Rama and Sita not for mere literary reasons but also for showing human beings the right way of life.
Brahmacharya is a stage - not a state of perfection.
you may immediately cite the example of Bhishma (whom I unconditionally adore) but kindly remember the Karma which brought one of the ashhtavasus on earth as Bhishma.
it is the most frequently cited thing in logic that an inference can never be drawn based on exceptional things. any inference must have answer to some standardisation process.
as for your idea that you can be with Krishna all alone-- please for Krishna's sake think twice- is it good to think of oneself alone when relating to the absolute-
all this "pure" (as Parvati says) talk is nothing but misplaced hedonism (seeking pleasure in the form of Brahmaanandam) and seeking the spiritual summum bonum for oneself alone (kindly refer to the set of questions raised by AgniBharatahi in the common spiritual blog) is tantamount to selfishness.
the world IS NOT UNREAL OR MAYA --- I WILL STRIKE DOWN THIS CONSTRUCT (THANKS TO SRI RAMANUJA) WHENEVER IT IS RAISED! . ONE CANNOT RUN AWAY FROM REALITY.
ONE CANNOT THINK OF ESCAPIG SAMSARA WHEN MILLIONS STARVE AND WOMEN ARE SUBJECTED TO GENDER BASED CRIMES AND SUPPRESSION. THERE IS A LOT TO BE DONE IN THIS WORLD - DON'T TRY TO ESCAPE TO THE NEXT.
I KNOW I'AM GOING TO LOSE RESPECT IN YOUR EYES BUT I REALLY CARE FOR THE TRUTH MORE THAN ANYTHING ELSE. A TRUE VEDANTIN WILL CARE ABOUT THE CRYING CHILD ON THE PLATFORMS AND NOT ABOUT HIS OWN EXTRICATION FROM THE WORLD (WHICH DEPENDS ONLY ON SRIMANANARAYANA'S SAMKALPA). WOMEN ARE NOT SENSE OBJECTS - THEY ARE HUMAN BEIONGS - SO ALL THIS TALK OF KAAMINI- KAANCHANAM AND CRAP LIKE THAT IS RELIGIOUS CHAUVINISM - I SPEAK AS A SRIVAISHNAVA WHO KNOWS NARAYANA AND LAKSHMI TO BE ONE BEING.
DEAREST KRISHNA LET ME ALSO HERE EXPRESS MY CONCERN FOR YOU - IF YOU WERE TO ENTER INTO ALL THESE PRACTICES BCOS YOU READ ABOUT IT OR SOME SWAMIJI SAYS SO YOU ARE LIKELY TO DEVELOP PROBLEMS WHICH CAN SURFACE LATER. FIGHTING PRAKRITI OR MAYA (AS YOU MIGHT CALL IT) IS FUTILE, SUCCUMBING TO IT IS ALSO WRONG. WHAT IS REQUIRED IS INSIGHT, OBSERVATION, DISCRIMINATIVE INTELLIGENCE AND ABOVE ALL LOVE FOR NARAYANA.
IF YOU CITE THE EXAMPLES OF CELIBATE KNOWERS OF BRAHAMAN I CAN ALWAYS CITE COUNTER EXAMPLES OF HOUSEHOLDERS WHO ATTAINED MOKSHA DESPITE MARRIAGE, SEX AND CHILDREN.
AFTER ALL THIS IF YOU ARE THOROUGHLY CONVINCED OF BRAHMACHARYA THEN GO AHEAD AND REMAIN FAITHFUL BUT AS PARVATI SAYS DO YOUR BIT FOR THE WORLD, I WILL DO MY BIT ONCE MY IMMEDIATE DUTIES ARE DISCAHRGED.
TAKE CARE OF YOURSELF KRISHNA - LORD KRISHNA NEVER SPOKE OF SEXUAL PURITANISM WHEN USING THE WORD BRAHMACHARYA.
ARJUNA,
SO MANY VIEWS WILL ONLY CONFOUND YOUR UNDERSTANDING
VYAVASAAYAATHMIKAA BUDDHIR EKEHA KURUNANDANA
BAHUSHAAKAA HY ANANTHAASCHA BUDDHAYO AVYAVASAAYINAAM.
GITA CHAPTER 2
PLEASE SIT WITH YOURSELF AND DECIDE FOR YOURSELF FOR YOU ALONE WILL FACE YOUR LIFE.
PARVATI,
YOUR VIEWS ARE QUITE SOUND AND THE ONLY THIG WOULD BE , SOME AMOUNT OF STRUCTURING MAY BE REQUIRED TO MAKE ALL PEOPLE UNDERSTAND (I HAVE NO PROBLEMS WITH HOW YOU PUT THINGS BUT OTHERS MIGHT BE OVERWHELMED)
BEST WISHES
ALL MY THOUGHTS WORDS AND ACTIONS, I DEDICATE TO LAKSHMINARAYANA THE SUPREME BRAHAMAN!
SARVAM SRIKRISHNAARPANAMASTHU!
Dear Anand,
i am pleased with ur concern :)
I guess you have slightly gotten me wrong.
I never aspired for the state of samaadhi as the yogis do for the purpose of staying free from the harsh world. I am firm believer of the reality of worldly existence (not as maaya or illusion as believed by advaitins) and also about its nature. my wish is to experience that "unconditonal flow " of bhakthi like that of flow of oil. That is the highest state of bhakti or parA bhakthi . Only if one is established in Aatman Consciousness , such kind of bhakthi will be experienced .(This is acc to Ramanujas Gita Bhaasya). For that one has to be free of loads of Karma. For that as you pointed out, I should engage myselves in the nitya karmas and other devout activities of smaranam , kirtanam etc. I can as well do it them without getting married . What is the need for marriage? I still can help the world IF it needs. I can feel for the
Even after having this all these icHAs , if i am destined by Narayana to go thru marital life, I would gladly do that as his Dasa. Who am i after all? I can wish for thousand things but it is HE who decides
Actually I have great regard for your thoughts on marriage and women when you said WOMEN are not sense object but HUMAN BEINGS. I believe that they should be considered as the manifestation of Devi. Only if one TOTALLY in is such a mind set , he should keep a womens company. Even if there is a slightest bit of dirt in mind , one can easily be a victim to its fickle nature. Blessed are those who have such a pure mind. LEt there be no kaama but love and worship for the wife if one prefers to marry.
Only if one gets to that state of purity in thought and action, I beleive one can be an ideal husband. If you are one of those , my salutations to you. If not , which i guess would be the case of at least 90 % of the men/wonen in this world , they will fail to be ideal couple and keep committing mistakes.
Instead, y not be single and think about god and do service ? What is the need for marriage? What do you think is the need for marriage? Please clarify.
@ PArvati
Thanks 4 ur bolstering thots.
@Arjuna
I guess you should have gotten a clear picture of my thots.
Dear Krishna,
what do you mean by "dirt in the mind" are you referring to sex -- to call it dirt (even in the morally accepted marital context ) is to indulge in puritanism which I think will do no one any good.
do not use words like dirt, sin etc in rational/spiritual discourse, out of context.
why not stay single and do service?
great, if you can do so fine. I have stated before and I'll again go on record as saying that I am someone who can survive isolation on planet mars if necessary.
then what's the need for marriage-
?
because as Parvati pointed out it is a highly evloved and intrinsically beautiful instituion.
besides Krishna , if you are under the impression that all women are like Devi, and let us assume that you get married to a girl who has perfectly normal sexual desires - you will be committing an injustice - not only in her eyes but also from the standpoint of dharma. I am not advocating the pursuit of pleasure here , please do understand.
besides if you have understood that the world is real and not Maya then why run away from life.
what do you expect women to do when men turn Bachelors as you suggest.. they should also renounce everything and do service as you suggest.. all very nice but what if they don't share your views?
I am not sure whether the kind of concept you are advocating is really Indian or Vedantic-- doesn't seem logical(from a detached academic perspective).
also do you know something - there is a big lesson in the Gita whcich all of us must learn- Krishna would not have spoken about it otherwise...
in the third chapter of the Gita when questioned as to why man commits paapam Krishna tells Arjuna
Kaama esha Krodha esha Rajoguan samudhbhava:
Maha shanaii maha paapmaa
viddhy enam iha vairinam!
he says that lust and anger born of rajoguna are the enemies of a human being.
having quoted this let me go to chapter 7 from the Gita and look at the verse which says
Balam Balavataam chaaham Kaamaragavivarjitham
Dharma aviruddho Bhutheshu Kaamosmi Bharatharshabha!
I'm the strength of the powerful- not tainted by lust
I am verily love/desire/sexuality in beings not contrary to virtue or Dharma.
hope this clears things- sex is not a dirty word and if Kaama which is not contrary to virtue is indeed the lord will you call him dirt?
Lust makes a man look at a woman as a mere body...this is indeed worthy of contempt.
whereas in the context of marriage (love being a serious criterion) sex merely becomes a physical expression of love. it is no sin buddy... if you think so it is your wish.
why does one need marriage?
why does one need to live in the world? one can retire to the hills! why must one work? one can sit on a mountain!
by looking at marriage or any activity like studying, working or even day to day existence as antithetical to spirituality, you are espousing a thesis which runs counter to the rationale behind the Gita.
Krishna- do you have friends? if so why not be a loner and strictly refuse social interaction? (I am somewhat solitary but I am able to look at life and friends without attachement thanks to Krishna-Vasudeva).
Brahmacharya implies conquering the base animal that lurks beneath the human psyche and killing it - not holding back love (emotional or physical).
experiences are not responsible for bondage- attachment is.
you know VEDANTA, you are a great devotee (much much greater than I) then will you get attached to anyone...(dear Krishna, we are friends, but if I were to die tomorrow you must not feel grief if you are a true knower of the Brahman. if you are able to accept my death without getting upset then our friendship is as true as your knowledge.. if your vedantic knowledge is not correct then you'll get attached - however if you are a Bhaktha Narayana will see to it that you are brought back under his umbrella - Na hy Kalyaanakrit Kaschid Durgathim Taatha Gacchati!- chapter 6
Kautheya Pratijaanaahi - na me Bhaktha pranashyathi )
so why all this rigidity with respect to marriage?
we all knwo (I very well do) that life is short and impermanent. why not spend it in a manner that is for the benefit of more than one person and experience all things within the bounds of Dharma.
Krishna have you ever felt love (not attraction to a member of the opposite sex - that's hormone induced) for any being- have you felt affection for a puppy dog?
have you enjoyed the talk of children?
have you genuinely wished someone well?
if you say yes to any or all of these then you are closer to Krishna-Vasudeva than you think.
marriage that is taken up as a legally and morally accepted means to excercise one's sexuality is wrong.if that happens to be its only justification.
if you love your partner even when out of the bed, then you can rest assured that you are within the confines of Dharma.
if you do not see my logic then I would suggest that you read some speeches of J.Krishnamurthy . he is a genuine thinker who has no pretensions about anything.
Krishna I have friends (including you and other blogger friends who read my blog) but I am attached to none. I have concern for your health safet, etc because I do not deny my humnanity because my human existence is conditioned by time. I know that it is so but I must live with detachment.
detachment is not shunning of action (I'm sure you know this much better than I).
Arjuna needs to think not necessarily thousand times but just once - he needs to do it alone, clearly and in great depth.
he will see the solution once he gets tired of comparing arguments and merely observes the problem.
I would like to tell you that I too am a Brahamachaarin at the moment and will remain one till I complete 32 years of age.. however I am neither interested in remaining single forever nor am I looking forward to the end of this self-imposed discipline. time will take me from point to point on my life and marriage will happen when LakshmiNarayana wills it. I am in no hurry for I am in SRIHARI.
however I want a complete life - not something restricted. I love carnatic music as much you do and I love to sing with Bhaava- I follow AhAraniyama and absolutely love SRIKRISHNA VASUDEVA - IF SRIMAN NARAYANA COMES TO ME FROM VAIKUNTHAM AND TELLS ME TO JOIN HIS ETERNAL SERVICE IMMEDIATELY I WILL GO WITH HIM! HOWEVER UNTIL THAT TIME I WISH TO BE A COMPLETE HUMAN BEING ENDOWED WITH BHAKTHI AS WELL AS HUMAN EMOTIONS LIKE COMPASSION, LOVE, ETC.
HOPE YOU UNDERSTAND!
SARVAM SRIKRISHNAARPANAMASTHU!
Arjuna,
I'm taking liberties with your blogspace again, kindly excuse...
Parvati,
so you love arguments.. SO DO I!
why is abstention from sex hedonism?
because it fosters an unconscious notion of superiority (I have abstained from something that normal humans do) and also I mentioned the term hedonism with respect to the desire of the Yogin for the bliss of Brahman - Bliss etc are found as attributes of Narayana in the vedas only because the vedas do not know the real nature of Narayana completely (I have posted on words and their scope in philosophy sometime ago, check it out if you have the time).
to shun sex and seek the bliss of realisation is nothing but a transfer of the desire to seek a pleasant state from the worldy to the spiritual - agree with me on that?
enlightenment is a very abused word-
however if someone seeks the truth not for any bliss etc but for the truth alone (if a spiritual person thinks enjoying anything is a sin then he is the idiot not yours truly) then he is a true Knower.
Kulashekara in the MUKUNDAMALA says that he does not care whether he is in the pleasure gardens of nandana with creeper like damsels or he is in the terrifying purgatory called Kumbhipaka - all he needs is devotion to Mukunda.
this is worthy of emulation, not mere abstinence.
abstention is fine and not a problem really. however it cannot by itself generate knowledge (Paravti when you say I won't drink coffee, an opposite wish I love coffee is created which goes to the recesses of your mind and emerges later - that's why conscious repression and abstention are not good.)
"AND IT IS STUPID TO CALL HIM SELFISH WHEN HE IS WORKING ON THAT. Only thereafter he should think of others. Only a realised soul can truly help others. Otherwise it will be like the blind leading the blind. Agree with me? "
AGREE WITH YOU? ON WHAT THAT IT IS STUPID TO CALL SOMEONE SELFISH WHEN HE IS WORKING ON HIS "ENLIGHTENMENT"?
INTERESTING , LET ME ASK YOU ..WHAT DO YOU MEAN BY THAT POOR TERM?
CAN YOU TELL ME WHETHER IT REALLY EXISTS?
THE MADHYAMIKA CALLS THE VOID ENLIGHTENMENT , THE ADVAITIN CALLS THE NIRGUNA BRAHMAN ENLIGHTENMENT AND VAISHNAVAS BELIEVE IN VAIKUNTHALOKA.
I AM A SRIVAISHNAVA AND I UNDERSTAND THAT REALISATION COMES ONLY UPON SHEDDING THE MORTAL COILS AND ALSO I ACCEPT RAMANUJA'S PHILOSOPHY OF EXISTENCE OF THE I'NESS EVEN IN THE STATE OF REALISATION.
NOW THE ENLIGHTEMNENT THAT YOU SPEAK OF HERE IS NOT WHAT I TAKE IT TO BE.
RECOGNITION AND IMMEDIATE PERCEPTION OF NARAYANA IS THE ONLY ENLIGHTENMENT AVAILABLE ON THE PLANET.. THIS COMES THROUGH HIS SAMKALPA ONLY.
IF OUR FRIEND KRISHNA IS A BORN YOGI I AM VERY HAPPY FOR HIM AND HE CAN DO AS HE PLEASES.
AND FOR YOUR OTHER QUESTION---
DOES IT REQUIRE A REALISED SOUL TO HELP OTHERS?
SO ARE YOU SUGGESTING THAT PEOPLE DON'T HELP OTHERS WHEN THEY ARE ASPIRING FOR "ENLIGTENMENT"
I HAVE ALREADY EXPRESSED MY FIRM AND DECISIVE VIEW THAT NARAYANA IS RESPONSIBLE FOR THE "ENLIGHTENMENT" OF A PERSON.
I KNOW THIS VERY WELL BECAUSE I WAS A RATIONALIST TO BEAT ALL RATIONALISTS UNTIL NARAYANA TAPPED ME ON THE HEAD AND TOOK ME UNDER HIS UMBRELLA.
ONE CAN WORK TO UPHOLD DHARMA, ONE CAN PRACTICE DEVOTION AND ONE CAN WORK FOR THE COMMON GOOD (KRISHNA SAYS THAT IN THE GITA IF I AM RIGHT) HOWEVER THERE CAN BE NO WORKING FOR ENLIGHTENMENT AS SUCH BECAUSE EVEN IN DEEP MEDITATION ONE CAN PROBABLY ONLY CATCH A GLIMPSE OF NARAYANA OR ATLEAST THE JIVA'S TRUE NATURE.
TOTAL REALISATION COMES ONLY UPON TERMINATION OF HUMAN EXISTENCE IN THE FORM OF DEATH.
NO JIVANMUKTHI IS POSSIBLE AND I AM SURE KRISHNAMOORTHY UNDERSTANDS THIS. THEN WHAT IS THE ISSUE HERE?
AS FOR YOUR QUESTION" WHAT'S SO GREAT ABOUT MARRIAGE? WHY MARRY AT ALL?"
AAAN NAMMALAANDAIYEVA? INDHA MAADHIRI RENDU PAKKAMUM ARGUE PANDRADHU ADIYENUKKUM VARUM... AANA ENAKKU 21 VAYASAACHHU, INDHA MAADHIRI VILAIYAATTU ENAKKU BORE ADICCHU ROMBA NAAL AAIYIDUTTHU.
MAYBE SOMEONE ELSE COULD ARGUE WITH YOU FOR THE SAKE OF ARGUMENT.
SARVAM SRIKRISHNAARPANAMASTHU!
*Arjuna sits silently, with is mouth wide open - day dreaming!* LOL
Arjuna- neer dhan Arjuna enbavaro? illa Attila the Hun'a? Hey, I was just kidding... :))
[indha disclaimer potta podhum. naatla edha sonnalum thapichukkalam. heh heh :)]
nan paatukku sivanennu dhane oru orama comment ezhudhittu irundhen... adhula oru meaning kandu pudichu oru post...
idhula acknowledgement vera... "Parvati's and Viji's comments" nu. idha paakkara vetti makkal enna nenaippanga? cha, ennoda image'e pochu!! enna edhaala adikka porangannu therila... :(
*pointing aalkatti veral at myself* onakku idhu thevaya, thevaya, thevaya ?? :))
Oh its quite a fun to read such stuffs in your blog Arjuna. Thanks for bringing this issue up.
Live Commentary :
Anand show his mighty power to Parvati ma by putting a comment which could enter the guiness book of record for the longest comment in the history of blogging! Now the owner of this blog just waits to see if Parvati ma can beat this record :P
Viji - ellam ungalala thaan! Suma solla kudathu - oru comment-a potalum potinga - suma en blog oru range-ku poiduchu! :))
"Attila the Hun'a? Hey, I was just kidding... :))"
Ennakum Attilakum enna sambandam? Now dont tell me rava-vukum rava uppumakum sambandam illayanu :))
Dont worry viji - there is another viji to take the blame - paavam madras viji :))
viji - btw - come on put something in ur comment - I am eagerly searching for a new topic :P
Kasthuri - thanks dude :))
Arjuna different people from different walks of life confluence in your blog :P
Be careful da .... blogger might have to close down because of this surge in number of comments
saravana - chuuu kanna vaikatha :P
Sari naan mookka vaikkuren :P
saravana - un mookula chali :))
ok I don't want to dilute a serious discussion with some crap ... leave it
Arjuna,
one more comment..I'll try to keep it short..
Parvati,
I am not against hard spiritual practices but let me share some ideas with you ..
1. if you take some time to see how vedanta is constructed from the prasthana traya you will realise that its not a very robust process.
2. after studying the various passages in the principal triad (not to mention the aphorisms of Badarayana) the acharyas of yore wrote down what they thought was right
3. if you approach vedanta from a logical point of view , accepting all Upanishadic texts and the Gita as equally valid then you will land in Visishtaadvaita (which is logically consistent as far as its relation to the principal triad and its philosophy go). if you try to practice interpretative gymnastics you will arrive at any other vednatic position.
4. I am not asserting this as a dogmatic opinion, please check out all the texts, try to reconcile them and then come back for the debate.
5. just because one would like to make hinduism (which is a politico-religious myth and not a real religion) sound better than other systems one cannot accept a flawed concept like Jivanmukthi (viz attainment of an infinite consciousness when conditioned by a finite body) I can construct logical arguments against this concept anytime (again thanks to Ramanuja).
6. I did not mean hell or heaven or some crap like that which I do not believe in ... I was referring to attainment of Brahman (the terms Vaikuntham etc reflect my version of attaining Brahman, if you do not agree with this fine.)
7. Narayana is not a stickler for rules but you must first understand whether this desire for jivan mukthi has come from Him (hardly likely) or from yourself , based upon your knowledge of the scriptures or spiritual issues. it is likely that you read about the jivan mukthi of so many swamijis (whose experience might have been some form of samadhi understood as Jivan Mukthi) and wanted it cause it sounds likr the only true path.
8. as a humble Vaishnava I can only say that for someone who follows Ramanuja sampradaaya the idea of expecting a spiritual summumm bonum is not too great as in the Vishnu Sahasranama Narayana is referred to as Maarga: the path and he is the destination as well.
therefore for someone who has his \her devotion firmly set on SRIMAN NARAYANA , there can be no other goal.
such was the bhakti of the aazhvaars and the Pushti marga of sriVallabhacharya is another example, plesase consider some of those instead of trying for jivan mukthi just cause it seems extraordinary.
as for your opinions on marriage I have no issues with anybody's decisions (ARJUNA, NEENGA MATTUM , THANIYAA IDHAI PATHI SINDHICCHIRUNDHA IVVALAVU DEBATE VANDHIRUKKAADHU! LOL)
If you ask me why it must exist I USE YOUR OWN STATEMENTS AT THE BEGINNING OF THIS DEBATE THAT IT IS AN INSTITUTION THAT HAS EVOLVED FROM SCRATCH AND THAT IT IS A BEAUTIFUL THING IF ONLY CARRIED OUT CORRECTLY.
IF SOMEONE WANTS TO MARRY - LET HIM\HER DO SO
OTHERWISE I am not going to argue with such people
likewise if someone wants to stay alone , like Krishna has been suggesting, that's fine, but don't question the institution of marriage just because lotsa people have messed it up.
asfor your question on death... I am not sure you understood things correctly... our dying is in accordance with karma and Kaala. spontaneous death is an absurdity at best.
I am not aksing you to lead a good life here cos it'll help you in the hereafter.
I'm advocating harmonious living as it is in itself a spiritual sadhana and if done with detachment - nothing is better.
besides when Narayana is the Marga and also the objective to be realised where are you going?
MAYBE ONE COULD ASPIRE FOR THE STATE WHEN ONE SEES CLEARLY AND SAYS; VASUDEVA: SARVAM ITI!
SARVAM SRIKRISHNAARPANAMASTHU!
Wow a staggering 93 comments ahead of me - looks like a super dooper hit Blog - And a lot of serious discussion.
I feel every marriage is a unique experience - no two marriages can be alike. We cannot say that so and so's marriage works then it will work for me or it doesn't work then it will not work for me. Similarly being lonely - some people like it - some people don't. For instance I don't.
And whether one wants to get married or stay single is purely one's choice. According to me which one is better than the other is purely futile discussion.
Aatma - I was expecting u - and now only u come :( - the show is almost nearing its end :))
Krishna - a question to u? What happens if everyone in this world wants to become a brahmachari? I suddenly got this question :)
Parvathi,
You are right in saying 'Take the marriage easy' I like your thoughts on that.
The question here is ...why Marry??
You had brought the point of our parents / Grandparents ? Did they really stay married cause the wanted to?? Can they touch their hearts and say that they loved their married life..!!
IMHO, Our Grand parents and parents were never allowed to analyze the marriages..and they passed it on to us...( no abuses here)..and here we are debating the issue.!!.
Arjuna,
I thought I could leave things alone...but you know..
Parvati,
the divine never created anyhting..can you tell me how on earth the body is tamasic (none of the gunas are in isolation according to sankhya as you must be knowing) ...
I do not accept creation and as for as life and intelligence are concerned they have evolved and I will accept nothing unscientific as far as life and consciousnessa re concerned. many long-held notions about Karma and bondage of Jivas need to be discussed in the light of modern cosmology.
the world has ParaBrahman for its cause but not for any reason - it is NARAYANA'S leelavibhuthi - I m not even going to bother arguing over this as this will be apparent to you only if you observe the world - instead of rushing at all the intellectual red rags waved by others.
your way of interpreting my argument that Jivan Mukthi is logically inconsistent appears to involve your own emotional commitment to your self-styled program of liberation-while -alive..
btw,
I will be happy if you pull it off but surely I will not say " I told you so" when you realise that Jivan Mukthi is a flawed construct - at best Kaivalya is possible but still Moksha requires the final separation from the body,
the arguments you have used to try and refute me - please see them , are they logically admissible, what you are citing - the emergence of life etc can be acounted for in a logically admissible manner- can you do the same for your ideas -
or are you going to opt for the usual cop-out that it is suprasensual and therefore beyond logical discussion-
if thatis the argument you adopt then I can ask you how you will know a suprasensual-subjective experience as such and such as it will be indescribable, all descriptions being fundamentally flawed- what do you hope to prove, ..
anyway all the best for your endeavours,
SARVAM SRIKRISHNAARPANAMASTHU!
Arjuna,
here goes...
Parvati,
I didn't mean to sound inconsiderate or anything and most people are likely to cite the state of affairs in the world to ask how this can be the lila of a compassionate lord...
it runs deeper than that... morals and happiness\suffering in black and white cannot be relied upon while discussing this..
I agree with you on the first few points you have mentioned .... Narayana is present in everything and everyone ... to see this (not just see this but to see nothing else other than Narayana in everything and everythingas co-ordinately predicated to him as His effects) is the highest state attainable by any of us ... if you call this Jivanmukthi then fine... however if you are referring to the erroneous notion of liberation-while alive (according to which an embodied being is absorbed in consciousness of Nirguna Brahman while still inhabiting a body) I may have to furhter this argument...
however now that you say you have these conditions( I know how diabetes is like - seen too many people with it, and as for heart trouble that too) I think it would be inhuman on my part to cause any agitation in your mind. I am not responding any further on this topic.
please accept my aplogies and go ahead with whatever you have in mind. May Narayana be with you
SARVAM SRIKRISHNAARPANAMASTHU!
Anand: First of all I am quite sure Parvati is just generalizing the diseases of mankind.
Infact Moksha can be attained while living itself. Moksha = Moha + Shyamam i.e When the delusion is won = u attain Moksha. The only problem is the definition of Moha. From the dvaitin point of view Moha+shyam could be the victory of sense pleasures to focus our thoughts on the Lord and from the advaitin point of view Moha+shyam could be the victory over the sense of Ego - the realization that we are not the body but the Atman in its Pure form.
Arjuna,
I took it to mean a real condition ...maybe it is as you say.. that's for the diseases of mankind..
now coming to moksha-
you say from the advaitin's point of view it is the realisation that the self is the Atman (in this case you take it to mean the same as the Brahman)...
this is merely inflating the ego to the proportions of mistakenly assuming that you are Brahman.
true victory over ego can occur only when Prapatti is performed (if you have doubts check out Srimad Rahasyatrayasara of SWAMI DESIKA).
your exegetical skills can hardly make up for the logical inconsistences in the philosophy which you put forth when you speak of Moksha then and there (fast food maadhiriya?) besides the whole issue over the types of Brahman (Nirguna\Saguna ) etc is so simple, one only has to read all texts giving the same weight to all of them.
to say that abheda shruthis carry more force (and that Visishtaadvaita is a stage in spiritual evolution) will be interpretative high-handedness.
such traits are always visible in advaitic compositions, for the views there are constructed out of one set of ideas without an equal representation for another.
the concept of Adhikaaribheda is also used I presume to say that different upanishadic texts teach different things to different people depending on their competencies...what kind of conceptual gymnastics is this?
if this concept is valid then the Buddhist's refutation of scriptural testimony and JK's dismissal of authorities will be equally valid...
one might as well be an agnostic as the prima facie view in Mainstream Vedanta (i.e advaita) happens to be implicit atheism anyway.
however Narayana's samkalpa alone is responsible for deciding the thing we call moksha and other terms ....besides the Pancharatra system is acceptable despite all the arguments advanced against the Chaturvyuha concept.
debates are endless.. it is intellectually intoxicating to think that one is Brahman - that is all. there is no denying the fact that Brahman is one without a second... however Jivas are relationally identical to Brahman and in their pure state exist in Brahman. the unitariness of things still holds as if Brahman were not nothing will be, therefore as the Brahman is the cause all effects are from it only and have a relation based unity with Brahman.
the goal of life is to attain the knowledge of the self as different from the body but also subservient to Brahman (as elucidated by Ramanuja in the SriBashya).
the self is also a Knower and retains the Iness even during final release.
SARVAM SRIKRISHNAARPANAMASTHU!
Parvati,
Fine.... as a suitable conclusion to this debate:
SARVAM SRIKRISHNAARPANAMASTHU!
"Become my-minded, devoted to Me, to Me do sacrifice and adoration; infallibly, thou shalt come to Me, for dear to Me art thou. Abandoning all laws of conduct seek refuge in Me alone. I will deliver thee from all sin and evil; do not grieve.""
Nice lines to conclude this debate...:)
this is something the great bhaktas like annamaya, tyagayya, purandaradasa ,bhadrachala ramadasa of the lore did.
The question are to what extent can we be like them??
and
would it be rational to emulate them???
I guess the only thing we can do is pray him to give us that kind of bhakthi
Parvati- Hey, when did we (as in me, Arjuna and Anand) make you a 67 year old lady?? It was all your doing !! :))
@ parvati ji
yes, I think by means of bhakthi and prapatti , it is easier to realize "MORE OF HIM IN US " than "MORE OF WHAT WE THINK WE ARE CURRENTLY" . Then only , the ego , which is the cause for all kinds of problems, starts to vanish.
Parvati: Viji is the cause of all causes :))
Arjuna- *like vadivelu in winner* Vaendam...
Parvati- Yeah, I've replied to it.
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