Wednesday, October 19, 2005

Marriage - is it a must?

This question was triggered by Parvati's and Viji's comments in my previous post. I used to say to my mother, that there is no use of marrying, and its better for me to become a saint(??) ! But my outlook completely changed when I came to UK. I know a couple of aunties in their late 50's here and they are still single. They tell me that it is a big mistake on their part not to have married and they advice me to get married! They regret their decisions now. That too in UK, loneliness easily creeps in and you become mad after sometime! Parvati points out that marriage and children are not a must for a women and it is not the end of their lives. Even though I agree with her - I have to say that if a women prefers to be single, then she must make sure that she is occupied for the rest of her life! Else loneliness sets in! But still, I am not sure whether there is some sense of satisfaction at the end! Does she get a sense of completeness? - I am not sure!

This applies to men also. I can never be alone without women in my life! Women(my mother,chitthi,aunty, my sister) made me what I am today, and cant even imagine my life without a woman! I can always remain single till my mother is alive - but after her - there would be a huge emptiness in my life, which could be filled only by a wife! If I am to remain single, then I should either become someone like Ramana Maharishi, Atal Bihari Vajpayee or Abdul Kalam and remain occupied without feeling any loneliness! But I am not sure whether I can become like them!

So according to me, marriage is a definite must for both men and women provided their wavelengths match - else its better not to marry!.

Please do put in your thoughts :)..

113 Comments:

At October 19, 2005 1:32 AM, Blogger Parvati said...

Your choice of topic is like showing red rag to a bull - it is too interesting to ignore!

1. Any decision I might take at 20, there is a very high probability that I regret it later in life. It might be the decision to get married or not get married; to have children or not have children.

2.Not getting married can always be remedied by getting married whenever I feel like; but the difficulties increase with increase in our age. We ourselves become comfortable with our now-rigid, or structured individualities, unwilling and unable to make all the compromises that living with a new person as spouse would entail.

3. But the same is not true for not having children. There is a definite age to have children, so that you will be healthy, sturdy enough to look after them well till they can look after themselves.

I am just saying that certain decisions are so timebound, that you wont be given an opportunity to change your mind later. So when we take them when we are young, we should think it through and through, and have contingency plans for later, when we might be filled with regrets - do I still dont want children, when I think of myself at 55,60? After all, I cannot adopt at 45, when the fear of life without children most probably sets in? Do I still do not want to marry, given the examples of the two auntys in London, and the looming deadly loneliness, which is horror enough at 25, but must be pure hell at 45-75?

It is not a difficult situation to think over and decide for ourselves.

Even after knowing all this there are people who decide never to marry. They do not want to give up the best years of their lives doing what to them is a lot of compromising, giving up their independance. Actually, I am such an advocate for marriage that I dont find it easy to understand the reasons that could possibly exist for a person not to marry...Hence trying to present their case here is done half heartedly!

One important thing we have to understand, is the sociological history of marriage - I mean, doesnt everyone know that we could be like cave men and women, living with whomsoever we like, whenever we like, howsoever we like? Man over the centuries has evolved from that disorganised state of society to a logical, organised, beautiful institution called marriage. If there are aspects of marriage that are detrimental to one's growth, we should see ways to change these aspects.

Marriage is the result of man's evolution, emotionally and mentally and psychologically. It has been brought into existence, after serious consideration as to the consequences of not having this very very important social structure.

And if you have a wonderful partner, nothing comes close to the joy and contentment of such a marriage!

Even if I have a temperament not to feel lonely, even to such a person, a positive presence of a second person all his life will be beneficial - he grows because he chooses to understand a second individual, to care for her, to make way for her wishes; and this interests him, the changes he makes for the sake of his spouse dont make him resentful, but affectionate and indulgent, with a smile.

If we are going to have children marriage becomes mandatory; but even if we are two adults totally convinced that we dont want children ever (loneliness in old age with no children is no issue for these people - they cite the plight of all the NRI parents in India, who have to make do with blogs and emails and phone calls from their offspring, when now, in their old age, is the time that they desperately actually need the PHYSICAL PRESENCE of their children, not just to heal their loneliness, but because they are weaker and have to face innumerable ailments and diseases and illnesses). How do you ever harmonize the two facts of life : 1.My son is a doctor from Harvard Medical School
2.I want him to open a clinic in Anna Nagar, and work in KM Hospital all his life.

It just cannot happen; the parents are doomed to a life of loneliness, from the second the child is in the tenth standard working to get into IIT or whatever, in his undergraduate courses working for his gmat or gre and toefl.

So, should children stay next door or in the same lane as parents do, just to be close to them? That would be an immense cruelty to the children, their brilliant future, their opportunities to grow intellectually to the widest and highest levels.

Unless the children take the parents to these foreign countries where the parents are again quite lonely without the social interests there, the medical expenses are formidable in these countries and the children will find it impossible to pay for the parents' medical needs.

So having or not having children doesnt seem to have much say in warding off loneliness.

Even if we are consenting adults who enjoy each others' company, in India at least, marriage make things convenient in society and day to day living.

My own friends, who are Osho's disciples, and do not believe in these institutions, chose to just live together. But anywhere and everywhere they went, everyone from parents of their friends to landlords of their apartments, discuss, analyze, confer, infer about this interesting state of matters! Very personal questions which only we Indians unscrupulously ask "Is it a platonic relationship?, Do you both have your own rooms or do you sleep in the same bedroom?" so on and so forth; if I had been them I would have run to the nearest registrar's office and tied the knot stat.

In India the questions could be endless; but no marriage seems to work well enough abroad.

As to loneliness, what do we do when the spouse dies, and more often than not, the children are closest in a different city. Whatever we do then, we will do now, without marriage. I prepare for my loneliness in the future. Not just necessarily work all my life to ward of my loneliness, because of no marriage, but on the contrary, form support structures like going to children's homes, elderly people's homes, environment groups, be involved with the activities there only as an excuse to interact with people.

This suggestion is valid for all elderly people who are alone, not having been married, not having had children; or despite having done all that, are still alone and lonely.

 
At October 19, 2005 3:45 AM, Blogger Sumonk said...

Marriage is just a ritual. It is more of the love that need to exist between two hearts. True Love can make you live in synch with person whom u love even though you do not live under the same roof.

So the word "Marriage" in my dictionary literally, is just a farse that is done to show the world that two people are living together. Coming to the core meaning of marriage, I think many marriages in this world are just suffering, people trying to pull along because they have to, especially that happens a lot in the Eastern cultures. Even though the frequencies do not match, even though there are ideological clashes often, even though there does not exist any physical, intellectual and spiritual union of the hearts, they still continue. It is a shame on the system of marriage. Especially India needs a big redefinition of the term "Marriage".

Also very rarely there is a matching of frequencies, initially it is just but attraction, then ego show off and then ideological adjustments. Then Kids come in, focus changes from each other to the kids, and then the saga continues.....Most of them suffering in the pangs of attachment. Detached love does not exist in many marriages, it is mostly imposition and also trying to change the other person based on our needs and choices.

All these I am saying, being myself in a marriage and coming out of one. I had relationships after coming out also, seem to tell me only one thing, all these are transient and Ego gratification processes. I have also closely observed many marriages of my friends in India and USA.

True Love is something that can transcend all these social procedures. True Love is more spiritual that is unconditional and with no expectations, In such love a person can actually live alone.

With regards to loneliness, it initially will be painful, but it is because we all are conditioned to live together. But then out of that loneliness arises a need and purpose above one self, to make a positive difference in the world we live in.

Coming to the concept of living together, it is very much possible and many people are adopting that these days, and it is just a matter of time before we see that becoming more popular. Initially there are gonna be hurdles in the society, but again change is the law of nature.

With regards to old age, I know many people atleast in the western world, where they keep fit, exercise, meditate and stay fit and healthy till the last breath. I have seen my 2 grandfathers in India taking care of themselves inspite of being alone till their last breath. The tailored their lives in a way that there are not many depedncies. Infact one of them married another woman at 68 after his first wife passed away and had a great company with that women and were there for each other.

Infact I started feeling I need a marriage at 60 :-) where it is just companionship rather than gratification of Egos and rituals...How many marrriages are union of SOuls??

 
At October 19, 2005 4:08 AM, Blogger Parvati said...

Throwing away the baby with the bath water seems to be the trend these days - there are problems in the institution of marriage; so like the Queen of Hearts, we cry out "Off with its head!"

Let us understand why marriage as an institution came into existence at all. Each and every reason we can think of, that justified marriage 50000 years back are all exactly as valid today.

With whom does anyone in this world have a union of a soul relationship? We dont. Neither with our parents, nor with our siblings, nor with our teachers, nor with our friends, nor with our children, nor most probably with our spouses.

So, why condemn only the relationship of marriage alone, just because it is not a union of souls, but a union of convenience?

For that matter, do we have a soulful union with God? It takes a whole lifetime if even then to achieve that.

Given this scenario where no relationship or for that matter no thing at all in this world is perfect, why target marriage alone and say that it doesnt mostly involve the union of souls and has to go.

Why dont we extend this argument to everything else, and discard everything else too? Not just marriage, but every institution of society?

Why dont I leave jobs which are not perfect for me and be a permanent job hopper?

The conclusion is this - marriage is an institution. It is not a human being, to be blamed or praised in itself. The problems created in a marriage are created by the people constituting the marriage. It is totally upto them to make it work or not.

And, Shri.Sumonk, what you say you are going to do at 60, that is get married, when it will be for companionship, rather that gratification of Egos and rituals, may I ask you what is stopping you from doing that now - have a splendid marriage of companionship, without ego or rituals. Why wait till 60? You think your ego would have disappeared at 60, age doesnt do anything of that sort. It is long lasting difficult sadhana that does that.

I think the whole organised institution of marriage is very beautiful - everybody's needs thought out and wellcared for. The parents', the children's, and the needs of the couple too. And despite all this poor poor marriage has to put up with so much flak, it is a gross injustice.

Marriage neednt go or change. People making up a marriage should.

 
At October 19, 2005 4:40 AM, Blogger TJ said...

Life and surroundings change so very fast, that the person who is thought to be a life long companion just disappears one fine morning.
Thus family is an institution that puts meaning into life.
If somebody can add meaning to themselves in some other way, well and good, but i have not come across many such folks.

 
At October 19, 2005 4:55 AM, Blogger Sumonk said...

Parvatiji,
I agree with you in every respect, that it is the people that need to change.
But how many of these people are willing to change?

Also what I want to convey is, "what Marriage is supposed to be is not what it is Today."
We add too much of baggage to it.

Like u said, Do we have a soulful union with God? Not majority in this world. How many in this world go within themselves to find the GOD? It is again the same with rituals performed in the name of GOD. How many know the true esence of those rituals? How many transcend those rituals to find that God is within?

How many parent-child relationships, understand child as a apiritual being rather than an ownership medium of imposing what parents feel?

How many teacher impart to the students the true essense of education?

Similarly, How many couples find the true essence of marriage?

Yes, Marriage system that existed in the ancient societies were ideal. But in the transitioning phase of hybrid worlds, we are confused about relationships as the world is running towards material pleasure than soulful.

 
At October 19, 2005 5:30 AM, Blogger Parvati said...

@ Shri Sumonk: Yes, you want a beautiful idealistic marriage among other things like ideal parents and children.

And only with such noble ideals as a starting point can we take the next step of building the beautiful structure of marriage.

Which we cannot do, if we object to marriage itself.

Let all of us, who already are in a marriage or are going to marry in the future work towards a happy, pleasant and enriching marriage!

Besides these well-meant resolutions, there is little we can do, because besides me, there is the other partner in a marriage, and isnt the fault always his and not mine, when the marriage doesnt work,or as we do nowadays, we speak in mature terms and say "neither was wrong or right, we just didnt grow together, gel together?!"

Let us try our best and leave the rest to God and our marital partner!

 
At October 19, 2005 6:07 AM, Blogger Ram.C said...

All depends on individual perception and approach. We should not blame Marriage, which is nothing but an arrangement / bond created between those involved. Getting adjusted and involved in the relationship, depends on each and every individuals attitude and commitment to that institution.

If people want to be carefree & non-committal, they won't enjoy the essence of the relationship created by the Marriage. Some sort of maturity & accomodative nature are required to sail the relationship smoothly. Shouldn't feel that we are giving up our freedom because of marriage. We need to prioritise what is important to go ahead further. "Give and take" is one of the keys for a successful marriage. If people are not ready, they shouldn't enter this institution.

I don't want to enter into the subject of having kids or loneliness in the old age etc., just to validate whether Marriage is required or not. Marriage should not be considered as a tool to avoid loneliness or just to have kids. If we enter it with those aims, then the essence will not last long. After achieving these two objects, the life may become stale.

If we expect our partner to understand our needs and priorities perfectly, the same thing has to be reciprocated. If we don't have the mental strength to step into others shoes and evaluate the situaution, the relationship may not be as sweet as expect it to be.

Arjuna.. You had mentioned that marriage should take place only if wavelength matches. Sometimes, it so happens that people fine tune their wavelength after marriage to set the things right. It depends on their accomodative nature.

 
At October 19, 2005 6:26 AM, Blogger Sumonk said...

Beautifully said Parvatiji.

What I have seen is, that our people beahviours here from parents, elders to peers who do not see marriage as a spiritual union, had costed many lives, mental peace in many of my close circles too. And even the couples find it so difficult to fix it, do not have the support systems, stength and are made to brood in the fabricated marriage system.

Proper education of marriage system by parents and elders, what to expect of marriage, what it is intended to be, how it can be a mutually enriching experience, all these things would be nice to be educated to the younger generation.

Finally, Ofcourse, there is no evolution without destruction. It is all part of the process:-)

Give the best shot and let the result to the supreme....

with best wishes
Suman

 
At October 19, 2005 6:32 AM, Blogger krishna said...

Dear Arjuna,

Simply put, the whole purpose of taking birth is to attain the feet of the glorious lord. Try to make yourselves comfortable with the infinite being (aatman) and its Lord.

By attaching yourselves to anything that is material, you are definitely slowing down your pace. Still, if the situation forces someone to marry (may be for progeny, which i feel is not the need of the hour :) , it is possible to continue being spiritual but it is very difficult .Both the husband and wife should be like that. Hence, I think that by staying a pure brahmacharin brings not anything but the highest form of jnana ,bhakthi and karma not in countless births but in few years .

In fact, if you try being an Akhanda Brahmachari , an unbroken celibate for 12 years, you can realize god without much effort. says the sastras.
Hanuman , Adi Sankara , Bheesma pitha were all life long Brahmacharins

By chosing to marry, one is taking a longer and painful path to realize god.

Your thought of "i cant be without a women" is just an effect of MAaya. Please be careful about such things.
Merger urselves with God by the nine ways of bhatki and constantly keep seeking the Aatman.

Take this as a friendly opinion on my part of being ur good friend.

 
At October 19, 2005 7:36 AM, Blogger Sumonk said...

Wonderfully said by the Lord himself.,
Well said Krishna.
But it is very tempting to resist Maya, that is the nature of
Maya :-)

Suman

 
At October 19, 2005 8:44 AM, Blogger Parvati said...

@Krishna : Is anything that belongs to the world other than Maaya?

Do we stop educating ourselves because it is maaya? Dont we see to it that we go to the best schools best colleges and see to it that this particular Maaya is done well?

Same for everything else - marriage is a part of life. Whether you or the whole world calls it Maaya or not, it has to be done properly. Lives depend on a good marriage. The parents', the children's lives thrive when the marriage is a wonderful one.

Your calling it a maaya and at one swipe nullifying the importance of marriage is very irresponsible.

How would it be if I tell you that all knowledge other than that of Spiritual knowledge got by reading the scriptures only, is a maaya and that noone should go through this educational system which just makes us more and more materialistic, and moves us far away from anything spiritual?

Why should we reconcile science and spirituality if science too is maaya?

Accept Life. See how you can make it better. Not destroy it by calling everything a Maaya.

If everything is Maaya other than reaching God, why be born at all, in the first place? The Lord could have kept us with Himself and not even created this whole Maaya?

Nothing in this world is Maaya. Otherwise Sri Krishna wouldnt have made Arjuna kill his own near and dear ones. Life matters, dharma in life matters most - Arjuna had to kill the Kauravas because only then Dharma would be reestablished on earth.

Similarly, we should find the best ways to carry forward the Dharma of a marriage, of being in a family. Of everything in life itself.

We cannot escape it - even if you avoid the maaya of marriage, even then you would be living some Maaya; if not as a husband, then surely, as a son, as a brother, as an employee, as an employer, as a student?

Where are you going to run away from all this Maaya?

Life is precious; live it well. Accord it the respect deserved by something in which Lord Krishna himself is. The Lord is everything. Sri Krishna says in the Gita, "sarvabhuutasthitam yo maam bhajati ekatvam aasthitah" - meaning, 'whoever loves Me in all and his soul is founded upon the divine oneness, however he lives and acts, lives and acts in Me.'

So dont reject anything; make everything better and better, with the knowledge you get from your sadhana of reaching the Supreme Lord.

 
At October 19, 2005 8:51 AM, Blogger mysorean said...

Arjuna,

Good that you want to marry.

But you have raised pertinent questions. For which I guess there are sufficient arguments to take up on both sides. There is no point getting into an argument is my opinion.

My dad quotes George Bernard Shaw on this. Once when Mr. Shaw was asked, "Whether it's better to get married or not?". He replied, "You will regret both ways".

So, let me sign-off with this. Looks like this comments column is going to develop into an interesting space for thesis on this topic.

 
At October 19, 2005 9:06 AM, Blogger awakeningcoma said...

marraige venuma ,venama ithukku oru blogu,evalo periya commentu thaangaga mudiyala. naangalam kalyaanam panniveika maataangalanu alaiyaroom ,enga kastam ungalukku enga theriapooguthu.

 
At October 19, 2005 9:26 AM, Blogger Parvati said...

@awakeningcoma :V.V.SORRY.

I suffer seriously from verbal diarrhoea.

Should immediately take medicines to stop this overflow of words.

Should Tell myself: "shut up and stop torturing everyone..."

 
At October 19, 2005 9:29 AM, Blogger Viji said...

Arjuna- Why blood ?? Same blood...

nan indha aattathukku varla pa :(

 
At October 19, 2005 9:43 AM, Blogger Anand Ramamoorthy said...

Arjuna,
nice discussion, couldn't help joining.


Parvatiji (as others seem to call you)

I concur with all that you say... clear and balanced views are always required about anyhting.

I think you are one smart person capable of making the most out of life,best wishes.

dear Krishna,
to look at marriage (or even love (platonic as well as sexual) ) as antithetical to spiritual development is nothing but a wrong conclusion.
Hanuman, Sri Sankara and Bheeshmaacharya had their reasons and were exceptions.
the word Brahmacharya is widely misunderstood.
I am a Brahmachaarin and I have postponed decisions regarding marriage until I complete 32 years of age (reasons already disclosed to our friend Arjuna). however I do not think being single is a solution and definitely not a spiritual excercise.
I do not look at human love (be it the conjugal , parental or fraternal variety) as an impediment to spiritual progress. I would request you to give up such views as they are not logically demonstrable and also unfair to women.
our Acharya told me strictly that the Sri Vaishnava Sampradaayam extols the virtues of harmonious living
besides
Narayana and Mahalakshmi Thaayaar constitute the Supreme Brahman as one (they are comprehended eternally as one being) - I take them as an example and put forth the thesis that a true and mature marriage can indeed be good to one's spiritual development.
as for the arguments on Maya I am of the humble opinion that I have refuted the construct of Maya quite a few times and upheld the Visishtaadvaitc conception of Maya as Prakriti or nature.please try to understand, if Sri Krishna Vasudeva wanted a world full of Brahmacharins then he would have stated categorically - however he is known and loved as the ideal householder.
Sri Rama and Sitamma were an ideal couple- emulate them when you enter the institution of marriage.
despite all its shortcomings I am in support of marriage and trust me I am someone who can survive isolation on mars without cracking up. yet I advocate marriage - why ?
cause it is in its own right required for a complete life.
and Like Arjuna says I cannot imagine a world without women (sisters, cousins, mothers and so on). I am indebted to several women for their positive contributions towards making me what I am.

besides Bondage and samsaara can only affect one of incomplete understanding. if your understanding of vedanta is perfect you can very well get married and love your wife with greater understanding than ordinary men.
I know this is going to precipitate a debate....

anyway Arjuna,

please sit and decide this by yourself and you'll see the weight of my arguments -
you are not going to attain the spiritual summum bonum by merely turning your back on women. so please decide in favour of marriage and make it work - nothing else can complete your life spiritually.

SARVAM SRIKRISHNAARPANAMASTHU!

 
At October 19, 2005 10:02 AM, Blogger Parvati said...

@anand: Exactly. Nobody could have put it in a simpler way...

I dont know where this Parvati 'JI' is coming from? Must be in deference to my great voluble wisdom!

DO FREELY ABANDON THE 'JI'. Yellarukkum puniyamaa pogum.

 
At October 19, 2005 10:14 AM, Blogger Arjuna_Speaks said...

Guys - Am I seeing comments or different blogs in here :)) - LOL

Awesome discussion guys especially parvathi! She is in full form! Thanks a lot parvathi and all of u guys! Now, give me some time - I am in a soup here! I messed up on something and now I am in a real bad soup!I ordered a treadmill and they have delivered it - my GOD its massive and there is no place to put it now! So I am trying to pack back the 130 odd kg treadmill all alone for the past 4 hours!!! So that is y i am not able to respond to the comments!!

Let me solve that problem and come back! :(

So till then u guys continue :)

Comeon parvathi u can do it :)

 
At October 19, 2005 10:21 AM, Blogger Sumonk said...

I am the "JI" culprit :-)

Anand, you are right, there is a saying in Telugu "Bhogi kaani vaadu Yogi kaadu". Without becoming a Bhogi you cannot become a Yogi :-)

The only thing that does not appeal me in the word "Marriage" is the hipocrisy that people have added to that over a period of time. Otheriwse marriage can enhance a spiritual union.

Suman

 
At October 19, 2005 10:45 AM, Blogger Anand Ramamoorthy said...

Parvati,
fine and thanks

SARVAM SRIKRISHNAARPANAMASTHU!

 
At October 19, 2005 10:48 AM, Blogger Anand Ramamoorthy said...

Sumonk ,
the rightful progression of Purushaarthaas is Dharma, Artha, Kama and Moksha - no skipping stages here...!

as for hypocrisy.. well it is true that the world is full of such people. we can try to be honest without looing at other's faults - saves a lot of time, energy and gives you a fresh perspective on life.
the hypocrisy that you are referring to may exist but in our lives we can keep it out if we exercise discriminative intelligence and honesty.
SARVAM SRIKRISHNAARPANAMASTHU!

 
At October 19, 2005 10:56 AM, Blogger Parvati said...

@arjuna: YOu must be crazy! How could you actually spend precious pounds on a treadmill that doesnt fit your home beats me! You are strange. Are you actually going to return the machine? I am in splits, laughing helplessly!

Same problem here. To completely shift topics from the one under discussion, I too want to shift my treadmill from the massive balcony (which has transparent glass windows - I am trying to avoid them)to the inside of the house. Have not the slightest idea how I am going to do it. My 55kgs have been able to move it may be one mm away from its original place..Am truly going to break my back...Should wait for my husband to reach home and give me a hand...

As to the topic of "Marriage", I think I have said all that I wanted to say about it.
I can hear everybody breathing a sigh of relief, thanking God for small mercies, I suppose.

So, bad luck buddy,you are entering the scene too late!

I am going to sit back now and watch the fun...

 
At October 19, 2005 11:01 AM, Blogger Arjuna_Speaks said...

Parvathi ji - I need to have Parle G biscuits before commenting :))

No - I am not the culprit - my father is the one! :( - he ordered over the phone seeing the dimensions and only when these guys delivered - we saw how huge it was!!Infact, I lifted the treadmill from one end - and the other end hit my room door - and the room door is broken now :( - I am in a real mess and I need to somehow pack it up else I cant get a refund :( - I just want this stupid treadmill to get out of my house!

 
At October 19, 2005 11:03 AM, Blogger Arjuna_Speaks said...

Forgot to add - I put the treadmill on the floor and instead it landed on my foot and my right foot is in a bad mess now! What a day!

 
At October 19, 2005 11:16 AM, Blogger Parvati said...

@arjuna: I am so sorry about the wounded foot. Get well.

 
At October 19, 2005 11:24 AM, Blogger Parvati said...

and the broken door.

Seems like an ideal set up for a Chaplinesque slap stick comedy!

Shouldnt be making fun of you - but it is irresistible.

All luck with the refund. Hope at least that comes back without more ado.

 
At October 19, 2005 11:32 AM, Blogger Arjuna_Speaks said...

Parvati - First of all - once again thanks for taking so much interest in my blog and responding with full vigor - I appreciate it :) - thanks for ur concern :) - Also I have blogrolled u :)

Now coming back to the institution of marriage - I completely agree with ur points :) - but let me tell u some examples that have I have come across..

1)My classmate (a girl) married to an IITan in US as soon as she finished her UG degree. After she got married - she went over to the US with loads of dreams! There in US, she found out that this guy was a psycho!! A maniac! He used to torture her so badly. He used to lock her in the room and go to work! Her friends found this out - they somehow rescued her - sent her back to India and now she is divorced. She is in the UK doing her PhD now!

So if u see - marriage has virtually spoilt her life isnt it? If u see the actresses - not a single actress is happy now - all get divorced! In their cases - its the sense of Ego that plays the part!

2) As Suman pointed out - its very rare to find the best match! I have not seen a single husband/wife who have not quarralled or happy!There is always a conflict of interest which leads to unnecessary quarrels!Many tell me - its better not to marry rather than getting married - as Adi pointed out in his comments! So I guess the entire perception is "ikkaraiku akkarai patchai"

Marriage can help some or destroy some.

 
At October 19, 2005 11:35 AM, Blogger Arjuna_Speaks said...

that makes me wonder - marrying after 50 would be better than marrying early - since only when the old age sets in - ur ego dies away isnt it :)

when u marry in the old age - u are more concerned about companionship rather than other things!

 
At October 19, 2005 11:43 AM, Blogger Jeevan said...

Arjuna vuku Marrage a!!. Hai ya joly. asin's kaiveda matingala.:)

 
At October 19, 2005 11:43 AM, Blogger Arjuna_Speaks said...

sumon - thanks for popping in and giving ur comments :)

But is it possible for ppl to live together all their life without getting married?

The main reason y the old ppl here in UK end up in nursing homes is that they dont have anyone to look after them! These ppl enjoy their lives by changing their partners very often and in the end they dont have anyone! So what I am trying to say is living together could lead to complacent attitude and there would not be any serious relationship! U always think - OK if she doesnt fit in - I can always go for someone! So this attitude will always make things worse!

So, marriage is very essential to put things in order.

 
At October 19, 2005 11:47 AM, Blogger Arjuna_Speaks said...

Ram - very valid points :)..

 
At October 19, 2005 11:48 AM, Blogger Arjuna_Speaks said...

TJ- "Thus family is an institution that puts meaning into life. "

Well said :)

 
At October 19, 2005 11:53 AM, Blogger Arjuna_Speaks said...

Parvati -

"Why dont we extend this argument to everything else, and discard everything else too? Not just marriage, but every institution of society?

Why dont I leave jobs which are not perfect for me and be a permanent job hopper? "

Awesome questions - too good! These questions make sense! We learn to live adjusting our selves to things which we dont live! We live in countries where there are corruption!We live in countries where there are wars,famine,distress! We continue working in a company even if our managers torture us!

But why are we not able to adjust and live together with a partner? Awesome - eye opening comment from u Parvathi :) - Great!

 
At October 19, 2005 11:54 AM, Blogger Arjuna_Speaks said...

Adi - :)) - Bernard shaw is quite an intelligent and a diplomatic guy :))

 
At October 19, 2005 11:54 AM, Blogger Arjuna_Speaks said...

awakeningcoma - u want to marry? tell me - I know a load of girls who are looking for maapilais :))

 
At October 19, 2005 11:55 AM, Blogger Arjuna_Speaks said...

viji - where are trying to run away ? :)) - no way - u better respond to parvathi's comments :))

 
At October 19, 2005 11:58 AM, Blogger Arjuna_Speaks said...

Krishna - I guess Anand has answered u superbly :)

I think we need to spiritually evolve for being proper bramacharis! I really dont think some tom,dick or harry can live a life of a proper brahmachari. So for these ppl - marriage is a must for spiritual evolution.

 
At October 19, 2005 12:02 PM, Blogger Arjuna_Speaks said...

Anand - first of all - I am very sorry to say that u have been beaten by parvathi when it comes to the length of ur comments :)) - she has beaten u by a mile :)) - I thought u were the no 1 guy when it comes to writing massive comments - but parvathi has taken the title now :)) - so my heartfelt condolences :))

Well said Anand :) - Love is different from bondage..We can love anybody but we should never be bonded to them! But its quite a hard task to achieve isnt it?

 
At October 19, 2005 12:04 PM, Blogger Arjuna_Speaks said...

Parvati - I have put separate comments - so please do check all of them :)

en sogam - ungaluku siripa iruku :))

 
At October 19, 2005 12:05 PM, Blogger Arjuna_Speaks said...

jeevan - when u said that - I am reminded of chinna thambi - "hai ennaku kalyanam" :)) - no pa - I am not marrying now - I need to wait for asin to finish all her films ;)

 
At October 19, 2005 12:09 PM, Blogger Arjuna_Speaks said...

Anand - "please sit and decide this by yourself and you'll see the weight of my arguments -
you are not going to attain the spiritual summum bonum by merely turning your back on women. so please decide in favour of marriage and make it work - nothing else can complete your life spiritually."

That is very encouraging - so I am going to fall in luv again :))

 
At October 19, 2005 12:17 PM, Blogger Parvati said...

@arjuna: I am very new to blogging. What does it mean when you say that you have blogrolled me?

 
At October 19, 2005 12:41 PM, Blogger Arjuna_Speaks said...

parvati - now I can access ur site easily - I have added ur link in my blog - check the "Arjuna Visits" section (right hand side - scroll down) - u can see ur name :)

 
At October 19, 2005 12:53 PM, Blogger Parvati said...

@arjuna-
Right- I did see my name over there. By scrolling down in the right hand side. OK. Thanks are in order? So, thanks,A.

.what is asin? An Actress! I have been too insulated from tamil movies I think. The last one I saw in the cinemas was Kandukondein Kandukondein. That was years ago..Should brush up my knowledge with all these abundant tamil blogs.
.the life of your friend who is now doing her Phd in the UK is not yet over. Besides her work, she will definitely find a normal brilliant and good man. Why not? Why should we be so tense with our pessimism?
. her plight might have been equally bad or worse because her own childhood would have been affected if her parents had been psychotic.
.I havent spoken about love at all; and that makes these comments lack that fulfilling emotional thread that is always needed in a topic like marriage. Glad that Anand brought it up.
Love would make all this chatter chatter completely unnecessary, clear all your doubts; you will not even remember that you were uncertain about whether to marry or not, that you had so many fears and issues regarding it - for you, just the compulsion to be with her, speak to her, and share everything of your life, your good and bad days, her good and bad times -only that will matter. And this could grow after marriage too, as ram.c said in his comment, people fine tune their wavelengths to suit each other's personalities all the time, mainly after the marriage, because they are constantly acting and reacting to each other, are living with each other.

And after their marriage they neednt fear a break up, unlike in a live-in relationship, and can freely reveal everything about themselves to each other.

So, there - back to the cliche: Love conquers everything.

So, arjuna, buck up and find her and all this talk will disappear like fog in the sun and you will just be experiencing the condition of "kandalar vindilar, vindavar kandilar"!

So, all luck for your refund for the treadmill, and more importantly to find the love of your life! Whether it is asin (what the deuce does the name mean?), or someoneelse!

 
At October 19, 2005 12:58 PM, Blogger Parvati said...

sorry, that should read "kandavar vindilar, vindavar kandilar"

 
At October 19, 2005 1:02 PM, Blogger Anand Ramamoorthy said...

Arjuna,
hmm. I'm really mad now(lol) wait for my next post and the comments it will generate (lol).

all the best buddy

SARVAM SRIKRISHNAARPANAMASTHU!

 
At October 19, 2005 1:05 PM, Blogger Parvati said...

I should be going, Arjuna. Bye.

 
At October 19, 2005 3:08 PM, Blogger Saravana Kumar said...

Hmm too big discussion ... but if you think on this issue a lot it finally deduces to and stupid illusion with no base ... Its only the Ego and desires that makes someone say that I need to marry ... the desires are nothing but illusions created for continuation of species and karma ... nothing other than that

 
At October 19, 2005 3:12 PM, Blogger Ram.C said...

this is too much of a debate, Arjuna... 20 line-kku 48 commentaa? hmmm.. marriage makes everyone to talk a lot.. rather I would say 'pulambal'.

 
At October 19, 2005 3:13 PM, Blogger Arjuna_Speaks said...

Parvati - ur welcome - I shuld thank u for spending ur time in my blog :)..thanks..

Ok asin is my favourite actress and I was just kidding to jeevan. How can I ever marry Asin? I cant even dream about it :))..Maybe I culd turn up as a producer or director and direct some films with her - then I may have a chance :))

Ok Asin means - A+Sin -> where A in sanscrit means not and sin u know = so Asin means Pure! This is the explanation she gives :))

She is a very pretty actress-hmmmmmmm!
U can check my prev posts on her :) - for pics :)

End of the day parvati - if u see - being sorrow or happiness - everything depends on ur Karma isnt it? So if u r destined to get a good wife - then u wuld! If not -u wuld end up getting a bad one! So we cant really control that! They say - Guru,Mother and Wife and all pre-determined! I have the greatest Guru, I have the greatest mother - that also means I shuld have the greatest wife :P - but I never have any hopes (the only hope is she must be quite pretty like my asin :)) ) and my only concern is that I shuld be a good husband!

But again - nothing is in our hands..but where do I go and fall in luv ? :)) this is again raising another interesting topic - so does that mean luv marriage is the only solution for a happy married life - since how can we just marry someone without knowing them properly? Since for us to love someone - if u c we love someone since they are giving us joy isnt it? We dont love Binladens or Bushs. We love someone since they behave as we expect them to behave isnt it? So when someone doesnt behave according to our principles - how can we fall in luv with them? Thus in arranged marriages - we are not sure whether they wuld behave according to our wishes - say for eg: as Ram points out we can fine tune to their wavelengths - but that too for a certain extent - if my wife expects me to take her to a discotheque and have fun - I am not going to do it - since I am not at all interested in it! If she expects me to drink - I am not going to do it! So there are certain integrities and principles that needs to be preserved - we cant just leave it for the sake of marriage isnt it? So how can this situation be handled in arranged marriages where we dont know what to expect from ur partner?

Sorry parvathi - I went to take a nap since I was damn tired with this treadmill fiasco! So I wasnt able to reply to ur comment asap :(

 
At October 19, 2005 3:14 PM, Blogger Arjuna_Speaks said...

Anand - ur scaring me LOL!

 
At October 19, 2005 3:16 PM, Blogger Arjuna_Speaks said...

saravana - as usual u write complex stuffs which can be deciphered by higher beings like Parvati,Anand and Co :))

 
At October 19, 2005 3:18 PM, Blogger Arjuna_Speaks said...

ram - I guess marriage is the most important thing that needs to be discussed today and I am also surprised to see the no of comments :)

 
At October 19, 2005 3:58 PM, Anonymous Raju said...

arjuna, what happened to the previous post (sarath and manisha one?) Self-censored-a? ;)

From my age 11 till 22, I was strongly against marriage.. I made everyone know about it and used to argue for hours.. Then, it changed after seeing 'her'. Sometimes I think of what made me to think against marraige and what made me change that later. Chemistry inside the body plays a big role. Seekkiram kalyanam pannikkonga!!

 
At October 19, 2005 4:35 PM, Blogger Arjuna_Speaks said...

raju - no I deleted it since I am under immense pressure to write meaningful posts - u saw the response for this blog right :)) - I dont think I can put my funny posts anymore here!

Me - sikiram kalyanam? :)) - its so hard for me to get married since I am quite a complex unpredictable character! So I have to be very careful - moreover I am not going to marry now - after 2 yrs I may consider :))

 
At October 19, 2005 6:46 PM, Blogger Mumbai Ramki said...

ARjuna ,
I enjoyed all the comments .Different kinds of people with different thoughts -Intresting .As a guy abt to get married and with some expereinces of interacting with good sanyasins ,i thought i can share my expereinces .

Forget extereme cases....

1.It is just impossible for two people on planet to have same wave length -Just impossible .But our live's orientation can be similar .\-there are few fundamental thoughts which both the boy and girl need to agree - Like belief in concept of family ,respect for elders ,few common spiritual intrests .The direction needs to be the same but the level can be different .

2.As i have understood in this short span ,most of us expect love and not give love .Its always our expectations which hold the Key .Whatever, our expectations keeps changing with time ,due to different expereinces in life .

3.Its is OUR responsibility to love ,take care and feel that ur spouse is no different from you .It has to be like a mother -son relationship .A Mother sees her son no different from her .She is happy when he goes higher in life ,gets salary ,move s to places .But it is when we see our wife as somebody different from us ( in LOVE ) we suffer .Having said this ,i did not mean that ur wife has to be similar in every taste of urs .She has to compromise a bit and you have to .There is no way one can expect success without any compromise .We learn to forgo our ego for the betterment of relationships .

4.Give Some time .Immediately on the third month of ur marriage ,don't conclude .Give a year or two .She will change or You will change or Both will change .I feel that our generation is very impatient of what we want and not compromise for even small things .

5.It is TRUE that marriage may be hurdle to spirtual progress .But lets be honest to ourselves .If we want to have agirl by our side ,feel complete ,feel satisfied - lets accept that we want this and go into marriage .Also ,when you are done with your lower desires for some time ,you WILL move to higher things easily .

6.Maya ,what scriptures say ,what some XYZ saint has said - These have to be understood in our mental capability and applied suitably .As Swami Vievakananda says ,Religious Hypocriscy is the bane of mankind .WIll you be surprised if i say that even in Ramakrishna Mutt they do not discuss abour Brahmacharya in common -Its customised for each sanyasin in a different way .In the same way ,spiritual meaning of words like maaya etc have to be understood in our own way .( not twisting it to our needs ,though)


6.Stopping all advises ,i will say why i went to marriage ...( koncham honest a sonna nalal irukkum illaya ??)

-> I do feel that sex without any relationship and value is dangerous .Beyond apoint it is difficult to control the physical urge for a normal human being like me .So i would like to have a disciplined life with meaning and as well as satisfy my physical urges.

-> I do feel a vaccum in me and sense of Non -Value if i just go for hunt /Dating with multiple girls .This kind of vaccum creates all mental troubles .I thought it will be better to go for a resonable girl ,accept her -ves and move ahead in LIFE than leading this kind of life.

->I feel a sense of completion if i have a girl with me .A happiness when i sacrifice something for her and she for me .

-> I tend to learn how to love somebody ,without being possessive .This quality will help you in all matters .But this takes some years .


In my case ,i discussed my expectations completely with my fiancee before saying a YES .Its much better to start with a yahoo chat ,speak over the phone and then meet .Let me frank here - Had i seen my fiancee first ,i would have forgot what i need to talk then ;)

 
At October 19, 2005 9:50 PM, Blogger Narayanan Venkitu said...

Pardon me...I don't think Marriage is essential / necessary ..however you want to call it.

I am married with 2 daughters and whenever my wife and I discuss this, we always say 'never' in our next lives.!

But then it might be just me and my wife.!

There are a lot of commitments/adjustments required for both men and women after marriage. Add to that the culture/society you were born/raised and you have another handful / sackful of issues to handle. I bet many people would agree.

And there is no guarantee your spouse would stay with you all your life to take care of your loneliness.!! Same with Kids.!

Though it is fun and heartwarming to have kids.! It is difficult to raise them...I know that 'cause I have 2.

But there is always the other side and they'll say ...Marriage is all milk and honey.!

IMHO, a life partner is something, marriage/wife is something else.!! I'd rather have a partner.!

 
At October 19, 2005 11:10 PM, Blogger Phoenix said...

"Marriage - is it a must?"

NO !

 
At October 19, 2005 11:55 PM, Blogger krishna said...

Dear anand

At least for now, I am pretty sure that my only wish in life is to stay married to the divine nada brahman for the sake of the naadpriyana and for my aatman

jsut one clarification i need :)

u said "Sri Rama and Sitamma were an ideal couple- emulate them when you enter the institution of marriage"

If it is not possible for us to emulate the ideals of great bhakthas and people like Hanuman and Shankara, how can we emulate the most perfect couple?

Yes, if one has no escape from marriage , i totally agree with you that we should try our best to emulate the divine couple . That would an equally good or greater path to HIS thiruvadigal. but we can as well be a ideal brahmachaarin if we can be an ideal couple and see the DEVI in all women. Doesnt it seem likely????

Watever be the decision one takes / forced to take, I invoke the blessings of Sriman Narayana so that all of them progress vertically in a spiritual plane and not horizontally crawl in the material plane....

Om tat sat

Dear arjuna,

This is highly a personal issue but THINK THOUSAND TIMES before u do.. be sure that u are progressing spiritually even if u get married. Being like an ideal couple is just us difficult or perhaps more difficult that being a pure brahmacharin. Only if u are 101% sure that u would be like that ideal couple , go for it, else , give up the idea of marriage.

 
At October 20, 2005 12:00 AM, Blogger krishna said...

Folks

Also u should also have an ideal or (at least close to ideal) wife. If you can find such a girl , you are very blessed but think about the probabilites of finding such a girl. A girl that would support you spiritually without giving yield to the material world.

 
At October 20, 2005 2:22 AM, Blogger Eclectic Blogger said...

Hello,

Stepped across your post.. very true and well written article!

 
At October 20, 2005 5:16 AM, Blogger Parvati said...

@Krishna: You must be very young (I have to check your profile), intense, sincere and should I also add 'pure'.

And it is not difficult at all to be completely fulfilled by Sri Krishna, and live totally in Him and by Him. It is the most Perfect way of living the Perfection.

Don't let all this talk deviate you from your own inclinations and decisions to live your life as nothingelse but only as the child of Sri Krishna always.

Actually, others should let your words deviate them from their involvement with the issue of marriage.

I still think that the vertical relationship with Shriman Narayana should constantly influence, affect, determine your horizontal or lateral relationship with the mundane human world.

Your vertical relationship with Bhagawan should be like a thousand suns that remove the darkness from the horizontal world - shouldn't it? Have a heart, and show some compassion towards this world after you reach your goal in life, wont you?

 
At October 20, 2005 5:20 AM, Blogger Arjuna_Speaks said...

Mumbai Ramki - thank u so much for ur honest comments - ur comments were very valuable

"-> I do feel that sex without any relationship and value is dangerous .Beyond apoint it is difficult to control the physical urge for a normal human being like me .So i would like to have a disciplined life with meaning and as well as satisfy my physical urges."

I am not sure how Krishna would answer this :) - Is it possible for everyone to control their urges and become a brahmacharin?

 
At October 20, 2005 5:22 AM, Blogger Arjuna_Speaks said...

Narayanan sir - that was a surprise comment from u :)..

I sometimes think like what u have said :) - I guess only Parvati can answer u :)

 
At October 20, 2005 5:23 AM, Blogger Arjuna_Speaks said...

phoenix - OK :)

 
At October 20, 2005 5:26 AM, Blogger Arjuna_Speaks said...

Krishna - ur still persistent in being a brahmachari :) - so u will never marry is it?

 
At October 20, 2005 5:26 AM, Blogger Arjuna_Speaks said...

anon - thanks :)

 
At October 20, 2005 5:32 AM, Blogger Arjuna_Speaks said...

Parvati - well said :)

I guess marriage is for lesser human beings like me :))

 
At October 20, 2005 5:48 AM, Blogger Parvati said...

@arjuna: I dont believe in lesser or higher; to each one there is a right way of living. We should know that. The only thing we can avoid is a divided soul, one which wants both be a brahmacharin and also a married man. Then we will be tortured.

@narayanan venkitu (sir?): What are the difficulties in a marriage that are absent in a live-in relationship? Especially now when separation through divorce is all pervading and easy enough to get, as walking out of a live-in relationship is?

Except for the financial wrangles in the case of divorce, I dont see any.

I think that marriage, like our childhood, our education and our upbringing by our parents should become a part of our foundation, and we should build interesting life-structures on top of this foundation.

We cannot keep having an ongoing perennial postmortem of marriage, because it disturbs the foundation and the very structure of our life.
It will be like constantly pulling a plant out to check its roots - it will kill the plant.

If both of you have interesting things to do besides bringing up children, you should do them together. Then you will have a light hearted life built on the foundation of marriage.

 
At October 20, 2005 6:21 AM, Blogger Sriram C S said...

I think we all need to read Oscar Wilde seriously... Women marry because they are curious.Men marry because they are tired. Both get disappointed!! ;)

 
At October 20, 2005 6:26 AM, Blogger Ram.C said...

Chk out this 'The Hindu Metro plus' article of today with some live moments shared by two couples.. I bringing it in, due to the adjusting nature of the relationship, revealed by them.

 
At October 20, 2005 6:55 AM, Blogger Narayanan Venkitu said...

Parvathi,
You said : because it disturbs the foundation and the very structure of our life.

How does it do that??? Your thoughts please???

 
At October 20, 2005 7:08 AM, Blogger Anand Ramamoorthy said...

Dear Arjuna, Krishna and Parvati,

let me say something to my dear friend Krishna first,

1. why can't we emulate Hanuman Sankara ..? good question...
but the answer is there in my previous comment-- please look , observe (as JK says) and you'll find the answer.
as for your notion that emulating the divine couple is difficult I would like to bring to your kind attention that Valmiki portrays Rama and Sita not for mere literary reasons but also for showing human beings the right way of life.
Brahmacharya is a stage - not a state of perfection.
you may immediately cite the example of Bhishma (whom I unconditionally adore) but kindly remember the Karma which brought one of the ashhtavasus on earth as Bhishma.
it is the most frequently cited thing in logic that an inference can never be drawn based on exceptional things. any inference must have answer to some standardisation process.
as for your idea that you can be with Krishna all alone-- please for Krishna's sake think twice- is it good to think of oneself alone when relating to the absolute-

all this "pure" (as Parvati says) talk is nothing but misplaced hedonism (seeking pleasure in the form of Brahmaanandam) and seeking the spiritual summum bonum for oneself alone (kindly refer to the set of questions raised by AgniBharatahi in the common spiritual blog) is tantamount to selfishness.
the world IS NOT UNREAL OR MAYA --- I WILL STRIKE DOWN THIS CONSTRUCT (THANKS TO SRI RAMANUJA) WHENEVER IT IS RAISED! . ONE CANNOT RUN AWAY FROM REALITY.
ONE CANNOT THINK OF ESCAPIG SAMSARA WHEN MILLIONS STARVE AND WOMEN ARE SUBJECTED TO GENDER BASED CRIMES AND SUPPRESSION. THERE IS A LOT TO BE DONE IN THIS WORLD - DON'T TRY TO ESCAPE TO THE NEXT.

I KNOW I'AM GOING TO LOSE RESPECT IN YOUR EYES BUT I REALLY CARE FOR THE TRUTH MORE THAN ANYTHING ELSE. A TRUE VEDANTIN WILL CARE ABOUT THE CRYING CHILD ON THE PLATFORMS AND NOT ABOUT HIS OWN EXTRICATION FROM THE WORLD (WHICH DEPENDS ONLY ON SRIMANANARAYANA'S SAMKALPA). WOMEN ARE NOT SENSE OBJECTS - THEY ARE HUMAN BEIONGS - SO ALL THIS TALK OF KAAMINI- KAANCHANAM AND CRAP LIKE THAT IS RELIGIOUS CHAUVINISM - I SPEAK AS A SRIVAISHNAVA WHO KNOWS NARAYANA AND LAKSHMI TO BE ONE BEING.
DEAREST KRISHNA LET ME ALSO HERE EXPRESS MY CONCERN FOR YOU - IF YOU WERE TO ENTER INTO ALL THESE PRACTICES BCOS YOU READ ABOUT IT OR SOME SWAMIJI SAYS SO YOU ARE LIKELY TO DEVELOP PROBLEMS WHICH CAN SURFACE LATER. FIGHTING PRAKRITI OR MAYA (AS YOU MIGHT CALL IT) IS FUTILE, SUCCUMBING TO IT IS ALSO WRONG. WHAT IS REQUIRED IS INSIGHT, OBSERVATION, DISCRIMINATIVE INTELLIGENCE AND ABOVE ALL LOVE FOR NARAYANA.
IF YOU CITE THE EXAMPLES OF CELIBATE KNOWERS OF BRAHAMAN I CAN ALWAYS CITE COUNTER EXAMPLES OF HOUSEHOLDERS WHO ATTAINED MOKSHA DESPITE MARRIAGE, SEX AND CHILDREN.
AFTER ALL THIS IF YOU ARE THOROUGHLY CONVINCED OF BRAHMACHARYA THEN GO AHEAD AND REMAIN FAITHFUL BUT AS PARVATI SAYS DO YOUR BIT FOR THE WORLD, I WILL DO MY BIT ONCE MY IMMEDIATE DUTIES ARE DISCAHRGED.
TAKE CARE OF YOURSELF KRISHNA - LORD KRISHNA NEVER SPOKE OF SEXUAL PURITANISM WHEN USING THE WORD BRAHMACHARYA.

ARJUNA,
SO MANY VIEWS WILL ONLY CONFOUND YOUR UNDERSTANDING
VYAVASAAYAATHMIKAA BUDDHIR EKEHA KURUNANDANA
BAHUSHAAKAA HY ANANTHAASCHA BUDDHAYO AVYAVASAAYINAAM.
GITA CHAPTER 2

PLEASE SIT WITH YOURSELF AND DECIDE FOR YOURSELF FOR YOU ALONE WILL FACE YOUR LIFE.

PARVATI,
YOUR VIEWS ARE QUITE SOUND AND THE ONLY THIG WOULD BE , SOME AMOUNT OF STRUCTURING MAY BE REQUIRED TO MAKE ALL PEOPLE UNDERSTAND (I HAVE NO PROBLEMS WITH HOW YOU PUT THINGS BUT OTHERS MIGHT BE OVERWHELMED)
BEST WISHES

ALL MY THOUGHTS WORDS AND ACTIONS, I DEDICATE TO LAKSHMINARAYANA THE SUPREME BRAHAMAN!

SARVAM SRIKRISHNAARPANAMASTHU!

 
At October 20, 2005 8:57 AM, Blogger krishna said...

Dear Anand,

i am pleased with ur concern :)

I guess you have slightly gotten me wrong.

I never aspired for the state of samaadhi as the yogis do for the purpose of staying free from the harsh world. I am firm believer of the reality of worldly existence (not as maaya or illusion as believed by advaitins) and also about its nature. my wish is to experience that "unconditonal flow " of bhakthi like that of flow of oil. That is the highest state of bhakti or parA bhakthi . Only if one is established in Aatman Consciousness , such kind of bhakthi will be experienced .(This is acc to Ramanujas Gita Bhaasya). For that one has to be free of loads of Karma. For that as you pointed out, I should engage myselves in the nitya karmas and other devout activities of smaranam , kirtanam etc. I can as well do it them without getting married . What is the need for marriage? I still can help the world IF it needs. I can feel for the

Even after having this all these icHAs , if i am destined by Narayana to go thru marital life, I would gladly do that as his Dasa. Who am i after all? I can wish for thousand things but it is HE who decides

Actually I have great regard for your thoughts on marriage and women when you said WOMEN are not sense object but HUMAN BEINGS. I believe that they should be considered as the manifestation of Devi. Only if one TOTALLY in is such a mind set , he should keep a womens company. Even if there is a slightest bit of dirt in mind , one can easily be a victim to its fickle nature. Blessed are those who have such a pure mind. LEt there be no kaama but love and worship for the wife if one prefers to marry.

Only if one gets to that state of purity in thought and action, I beleive one can be an ideal husband. If you are one of those , my salutations to you. If not , which i guess would be the case of at least 90 % of the men/wonen in this world , they will fail to be ideal couple and keep committing mistakes.

Instead, y not be single and think about god and do service ? What is the need for marriage? What do you think is the need for marriage? Please clarify.



@ PArvati

Thanks 4 ur bolstering thots.

@Arjuna

I guess you should have gotten a clear picture of my thots.

 
At October 20, 2005 10:17 AM, Blogger Parvati said...

@narayanan venkittu:"because it disturbs the foundation and very structure of life" - I meant when you have made your marriage a foundation of your life , an absolute like our parents and grandparents did, as solid as the very earth we walk on, then, if you choose to keep on analysing it, doing a constant backcheck, appraisals, it could only lead to a huge disturbance, and your life structure could well change, meaning the marriage might break.

I am just telling you to handle your marriage with a light touch. Let us take it easy. It is not such a big deal, but it is useful to have it going on well.Let it be. And things will be ok.

I am of course not speaking about abusive spouses and all the other million problems in present day marriages..

A normal good marriage doesnt need analysis at all.

@Anand : I wish I could disagree on some little point or the other, if not for anything else, at least to broaden your mind(!), but I am sorry to say this - you are completely right.

Having said that why is absention from sex hedonism, for god's sake? Because you do it for your enlightenment? Hedonism is peculiarly used to define the ism that is exclusively concerned with selfish pleasure pursuits -and to call the abstention of one the greatest pleasures of creation -sex- as hedonism is idiotic, even if it is Jk who has said that.

And why cannot a bramacharin do charitable works and be a good vedantin? What is so great about marriage anyway? What is its value to others, or to the world if I marry? How does it make any body else's life better?

As to 'pure', whatever be the definition of purity by anyone, it is a fact of life that abstaining from things like non-vegetarian food, fasting, abstention from sex, makes people feel pure and ready for thoughts about God. This is a universal experience, howmuchsoever it might be because of conditioning of past definitions from centuries old falsehoods, nevertheless it is still experienced.

. First one has to get his own enlightenment. AND IT IS STUPID TO CALL HIM SELFISH WHEN HE IS WORKING ON THAT. Only thereafter he should think of others. Only a realised soul can truly help others. Otherwise it will be like the blind leading the blind. Agree with me?

I did read AgniBharathis post in Cosmic Consciousness and I still think the only answer to that is do your best - if it is just sit all alone in your home, writing up essays in the blog, well and good; if you want to help the rich and poor realise and life the religion and philosophy that you practise do that. But remember that all have their own pace of working and realising. And we should respect that and of course respect our own inclinations too..

. do give your comments on my blog posts - as to whether they could be bettered content and structurewise. It would be helpful to me.

 
At October 20, 2005 10:23 AM, Blogger Anand Ramamoorthy said...

Dear Krishna,
what do you mean by "dirt in the mind" are you referring to sex -- to call it dirt (even in the morally accepted marital context ) is to indulge in puritanism which I think will do no one any good.
do not use words like dirt, sin etc in rational/spiritual discourse, out of context.
why not stay single and do service?
great, if you can do so fine. I have stated before and I'll again go on record as saying that I am someone who can survive isolation on planet mars if necessary.

then what's the need for marriage-
?
because as Parvati pointed out it is a highly evloved and intrinsically beautiful instituion.
besides Krishna , if you are under the impression that all women are like Devi, and let us assume that you get married to a girl who has perfectly normal sexual desires - you will be committing an injustice - not only in her eyes but also from the standpoint of dharma. I am not advocating the pursuit of pleasure here , please do understand.
besides if you have understood that the world is real and not Maya then why run away from life.
what do you expect women to do when men turn Bachelors as you suggest.. they should also renounce everything and do service as you suggest.. all very nice but what if they don't share your views?
I am not sure whether the kind of concept you are advocating is really Indian or Vedantic-- doesn't seem logical(from a detached academic perspective).
also do you know something - there is a big lesson in the Gita whcich all of us must learn- Krishna would not have spoken about it otherwise...

in the third chapter of the Gita when questioned as to why man commits paapam Krishna tells Arjuna
Kaama esha Krodha esha Rajoguan samudhbhava:
Maha shanaii maha paapmaa
viddhy enam iha vairinam!
he says that lust and anger born of rajoguna are the enemies of a human being.

having quoted this let me go to chapter 7 from the Gita and look at the verse which says
Balam Balavataam chaaham Kaamaragavivarjitham
Dharma aviruddho Bhutheshu Kaamosmi Bharatharshabha!
I'm the strength of the powerful- not tainted by lust
I am verily love/desire/sexuality in beings not contrary to virtue or Dharma.

hope this clears things- sex is not a dirty word and if Kaama which is not contrary to virtue is indeed the lord will you call him dirt?
Lust makes a man look at a woman as a mere body...this is indeed worthy of contempt.
whereas in the context of marriage (love being a serious criterion) sex merely becomes a physical expression of love. it is no sin buddy... if you think so it is your wish.
why does one need marriage?
why does one need to live in the world? one can retire to the hills! why must one work? one can sit on a mountain!
by looking at marriage or any activity like studying, working or even day to day existence as antithetical to spirituality, you are espousing a thesis which runs counter to the rationale behind the Gita.
Krishna- do you have friends? if so why not be a loner and strictly refuse social interaction? (I am somewhat solitary but I am able to look at life and friends without attachement thanks to Krishna-Vasudeva).
Brahmacharya implies conquering the base animal that lurks beneath the human psyche and killing it - not holding back love (emotional or physical).
experiences are not responsible for bondage- attachment is.

you know VEDANTA, you are a great devotee (much much greater than I) then will you get attached to anyone...(dear Krishna, we are friends, but if I were to die tomorrow you must not feel grief if you are a true knower of the Brahman. if you are able to accept my death without getting upset then our friendship is as true as your knowledge.. if your vedantic knowledge is not correct then you'll get attached - however if you are a Bhaktha Narayana will see to it that you are brought back under his umbrella - Na hy Kalyaanakrit Kaschid Durgathim Taatha Gacchati!- chapter 6
Kautheya Pratijaanaahi - na me Bhaktha pranashyathi )
so why all this rigidity with respect to marriage?
we all knwo (I very well do) that life is short and impermanent. why not spend it in a manner that is for the benefit of more than one person and experience all things within the bounds of Dharma.
Krishna have you ever felt love (not attraction to a member of the opposite sex - that's hormone induced) for any being- have you felt affection for a puppy dog?
have you enjoyed the talk of children?
have you genuinely wished someone well?
if you say yes to any or all of these then you are closer to Krishna-Vasudeva than you think.

marriage that is taken up as a legally and morally accepted means to excercise one's sexuality is wrong.if that happens to be its only justification.
if you love your partner even when out of the bed, then you can rest assured that you are within the confines of Dharma.
if you do not see my logic then I would suggest that you read some speeches of J.Krishnamurthy . he is a genuine thinker who has no pretensions about anything.
Krishna I have friends (including you and other blogger friends who read my blog) but I am attached to none. I have concern for your health safet, etc because I do not deny my humnanity because my human existence is conditioned by time. I know that it is so but I must live with detachment.
detachment is not shunning of action (I'm sure you know this much better than I).
Arjuna needs to think not necessarily thousand times but just once - he needs to do it alone, clearly and in great depth.
he will see the solution once he gets tired of comparing arguments and merely observes the problem.
I would like to tell you that I too am a Brahamachaarin at the moment and will remain one till I complete 32 years of age.. however I am neither interested in remaining single forever nor am I looking forward to the end of this self-imposed discipline. time will take me from point to point on my life and marriage will happen when LakshmiNarayana wills it. I am in no hurry for I am in SRIHARI.
however I want a complete life - not something restricted. I love carnatic music as much you do and I love to sing with Bhaava- I follow AhAraniyama and absolutely love SRIKRISHNA VASUDEVA - IF SRIMAN NARAYANA COMES TO ME FROM VAIKUNTHAM AND TELLS ME TO JOIN HIS ETERNAL SERVICE IMMEDIATELY I WILL GO WITH HIM! HOWEVER UNTIL THAT TIME I WISH TO BE A COMPLETE HUMAN BEING ENDOWED WITH BHAKTHI AS WELL AS HUMAN EMOTIONS LIKE COMPASSION, LOVE, ETC.
HOPE YOU UNDERSTAND!

SARVAM SRIKRISHNAARPANAMASTHU!

 
At October 20, 2005 10:59 AM, Blogger Anand Ramamoorthy said...

Arjuna,
I'm taking liberties with your blogspace again, kindly excuse...

Parvati,
so you love arguments.. SO DO I!

why is abstention from sex hedonism?
because it fosters an unconscious notion of superiority (I have abstained from something that normal humans do) and also I mentioned the term hedonism with respect to the desire of the Yogin for the bliss of Brahman - Bliss etc are found as attributes of Narayana in the vedas only because the vedas do not know the real nature of Narayana completely (I have posted on words and their scope in philosophy sometime ago, check it out if you have the time).
to shun sex and seek the bliss of realisation is nothing but a transfer of the desire to seek a pleasant state from the worldy to the spiritual - agree with me on that?
enlightenment is a very abused word-

however if someone seeks the truth not for any bliss etc but for the truth alone (if a spiritual person thinks enjoying anything is a sin then he is the idiot not yours truly) then he is a true Knower.
Kulashekara in the MUKUNDAMALA says that he does not care whether he is in the pleasure gardens of nandana with creeper like damsels or he is in the terrifying purgatory called Kumbhipaka - all he needs is devotion to Mukunda.
this is worthy of emulation, not mere abstinence.
abstention is fine and not a problem really. however it cannot by itself generate knowledge (Paravti when you say I won't drink coffee, an opposite wish I love coffee is created which goes to the recesses of your mind and emerges later - that's why conscious repression and abstention are not good.)

"AND IT IS STUPID TO CALL HIM SELFISH WHEN HE IS WORKING ON THAT. Only thereafter he should think of others. Only a realised soul can truly help others. Otherwise it will be like the blind leading the blind. Agree with me? "

AGREE WITH YOU? ON WHAT THAT IT IS STUPID TO CALL SOMEONE SELFISH WHEN HE IS WORKING ON HIS "ENLIGHTENMENT"?
INTERESTING , LET ME ASK YOU ..WHAT DO YOU MEAN BY THAT POOR TERM?
CAN YOU TELL ME WHETHER IT REALLY EXISTS?
THE MADHYAMIKA CALLS THE VOID ENLIGHTENMENT , THE ADVAITIN CALLS THE NIRGUNA BRAHMAN ENLIGHTENMENT AND VAISHNAVAS BELIEVE IN VAIKUNTHALOKA.
I AM A SRIVAISHNAVA AND I UNDERSTAND THAT REALISATION COMES ONLY UPON SHEDDING THE MORTAL COILS AND ALSO I ACCEPT RAMANUJA'S PHILOSOPHY OF EXISTENCE OF THE I'NESS EVEN IN THE STATE OF REALISATION.
NOW THE ENLIGHTEMNENT THAT YOU SPEAK OF HERE IS NOT WHAT I TAKE IT TO BE.
RECOGNITION AND IMMEDIATE PERCEPTION OF NARAYANA IS THE ONLY ENLIGHTENMENT AVAILABLE ON THE PLANET.. THIS COMES THROUGH HIS SAMKALPA ONLY.
IF OUR FRIEND KRISHNA IS A BORN YOGI I AM VERY HAPPY FOR HIM AND HE CAN DO AS HE PLEASES.

AND FOR YOUR OTHER QUESTION---
DOES IT REQUIRE A REALISED SOUL TO HELP OTHERS?
SO ARE YOU SUGGESTING THAT PEOPLE DON'T HELP OTHERS WHEN THEY ARE ASPIRING FOR "ENLIGTENMENT"
I HAVE ALREADY EXPRESSED MY FIRM AND DECISIVE VIEW THAT NARAYANA IS RESPONSIBLE FOR THE "ENLIGHTENMENT" OF A PERSON.
I KNOW THIS VERY WELL BECAUSE I WAS A RATIONALIST TO BEAT ALL RATIONALISTS UNTIL NARAYANA TAPPED ME ON THE HEAD AND TOOK ME UNDER HIS UMBRELLA.
ONE CAN WORK TO UPHOLD DHARMA, ONE CAN PRACTICE DEVOTION AND ONE CAN WORK FOR THE COMMON GOOD (KRISHNA SAYS THAT IN THE GITA IF I AM RIGHT) HOWEVER THERE CAN BE NO WORKING FOR ENLIGHTENMENT AS SUCH BECAUSE EVEN IN DEEP MEDITATION ONE CAN PROBABLY ONLY CATCH A GLIMPSE OF NARAYANA OR ATLEAST THE JIVA'S TRUE NATURE.
TOTAL REALISATION COMES ONLY UPON TERMINATION OF HUMAN EXISTENCE IN THE FORM OF DEATH.
NO JIVANMUKTHI IS POSSIBLE AND I AM SURE KRISHNAMOORTHY UNDERSTANDS THIS. THEN WHAT IS THE ISSUE HERE?

AS FOR YOUR QUESTION" WHAT'S SO GREAT ABOUT MARRIAGE? WHY MARRY AT ALL?"
AAAN NAMMALAANDAIYEVA? INDHA MAADHIRI RENDU PAKKAMUM ARGUE PANDRADHU ADIYENUKKUM VARUM... AANA ENAKKU 21 VAYASAACHHU, INDHA MAADHIRI VILAIYAATTU ENAKKU BORE ADICCHU ROMBA NAAL AAIYIDUTTHU.
MAYBE SOMEONE ELSE COULD ARGUE WITH YOU FOR THE SAKE OF ARGUMENT.
SARVAM SRIKRISHNAARPANAMASTHU!

 
At October 20, 2005 12:20 PM, Blogger Arjuna_Speaks said...

*Arjuna sits silently, with is mouth wide open - day dreaming!* LOL

 
At October 20, 2005 1:52 PM, Blogger Viji said...

Arjuna- neer dhan Arjuna enbavaro? illa Attila the Hun'a? Hey, I was just kidding... :))
[indha disclaimer potta podhum. naatla edha sonnalum thapichukkalam. heh heh :)]

nan paatukku sivanennu dhane oru orama comment ezhudhittu irundhen... adhula oru meaning kandu pudichu oru post...
idhula acknowledgement vera... "Parvati's and Viji's comments" nu. idha paakkara vetti makkal enna nenaippanga? cha, ennoda image'e pochu!! enna edhaala adikka porangannu therila... :(
*pointing aalkatti veral at myself* onakku idhu thevaya, thevaya, thevaya ?? :))

 
At October 20, 2005 1:53 PM, Blogger Parvati said...

@anand: Since I nearly fainted on reading this latest comment of yours, I had to take a break, and have come back fortified I hope.

Soon I think poor me will have to throw in the towel, cry craven and accept defeat. I cannot keep this up at all. It is bloody exhausting.

I am sure that where your reasoning powers go, this is just the tip of the iceberg; spare poor me, master, after this comment of mine.

So, here goes:

.ok. To seek the Divine only for Himself not for what we will get from Him, be it small bliss or divine Bliss is the only valid seeking. I agree.

.Let us assume I mean by enlightenment what you mean by it; and go from thereon. Helping others doesnt need enlightenment at all. But a person who is interested in the difficult sadhana that leads to realisation might need to devote all his energies to this pursuit - he might need solitude for a time, quietude for a time, many more things that doesnt involve anyone else but his own involvement with his sadhana. All this could be just a phase.

Others might be able to incorporate an enriching variety of all facets of life as and when he is doing his sadhana. But even such people might merit from periods of assimilation and absorption without other helping others.

And a normal human being helping someone, is always there. But the texture of an enlightened person helping someone is different. Otherwise there will be only Mother Teresas, if nothing but only helping others is most important. It is one of the things in life, but not life itself - "yaam petra inbam peruga ivvaiyagam" dont jump on me over the Inbam word.

Actually, the compulsion to share is quite strong anytime in a human being, and this rises exponentially when we even take baby steps on the spiritual path, and it will happen very naturally and spontaneously in the sadhak too, if not immediately definitely eventually.

. And I am not asking you the qs just for the sake of asking - seriously why make so much of an institution created for organisational convenience and management of society. Marriage is all very well. But if I dont marry, and I am fine with it, do my sadhana well, do charitable works well (maybe even better than what I would, had I married), how does it matter?

And if total realisation is possible only after our death, why dont we all just die voluntarily? How come Hinduism now sounds so much like christianity or Islam, talking of heaven or hell only after death and nothing at all while alive. Hell I know what it is like on earth, but heaven?

I am interested in Jivan Mukti when alive. Let us see whether that is possible. Whatever all the thousands of scriptures and gurus say. After all, The Lord who has given me this aspiration for Jivan Mukti in this life, will give me the process too? Or is He a stickler to rules? If not in this life, may be ten life times later?

Otherwise all these half-measures of little bit of some realisation or the other, are very unfulfilling.

 
At October 20, 2005 2:02 PM, Blogger Kasthuri Srinivasan said...

Oh its quite a fun to read such stuffs in your blog Arjuna. Thanks for bringing this issue up.

 
At October 20, 2005 2:05 PM, Blogger Arjuna_Speaks said...

Live Commentary :

Anand show his mighty power to Parvati ma by putting a comment which could enter the guiness book of record for the longest comment in the history of blogging! Now the owner of this blog just waits to see if Parvati ma can beat this record :P

 
At October 20, 2005 2:08 PM, Blogger Arjuna_Speaks said...

Viji - ellam ungalala thaan! Suma solla kudathu - oru comment-a potalum potinga - suma en blog oru range-ku poiduchu! :))

"Attila the Hun'a? Hey, I was just kidding... :))"

Ennakum Attilakum enna sambandam? Now dont tell me rava-vukum rava uppumakum sambandam illayanu :))

Dont worry viji - there is another viji to take the blame - paavam madras viji :))

 
At October 20, 2005 2:08 PM, Blogger Arjuna_Speaks said...

viji - btw - come on put something in ur comment - I am eagerly searching for a new topic :P

 
At October 20, 2005 2:09 PM, Blogger Arjuna_Speaks said...

Kasthuri - thanks dude :))

 
At October 20, 2005 2:25 PM, Blogger Saravana Kumar said...

Arjuna different people from different walks of life confluence in your blog :P

Be careful da .... blogger might have to close down because of this surge in number of comments

 
At October 20, 2005 2:31 PM, Blogger Arjuna_Speaks said...

saravana - chuuu kanna vaikatha :P

 
At October 20, 2005 2:37 PM, Blogger Saravana Kumar said...

Sari naan mookka vaikkuren :P

 
At October 20, 2005 2:38 PM, Blogger Arjuna_Speaks said...

saravana - un mookula chali :))

 
At October 20, 2005 2:41 PM, Blogger Saravana Kumar said...

ok I don't want to dilute a serious discussion with some crap ... leave it

 
At October 20, 2005 2:42 PM, Blogger Anand Ramamoorthy said...

Arjuna,
one more comment..I'll try to keep it short..

Parvati,

I am not against hard spiritual practices but let me share some ideas with you ..
1. if you take some time to see how vedanta is constructed from the prasthana traya you will realise that its not a very robust process.
2. after studying the various passages in the principal triad (not to mention the aphorisms of Badarayana) the acharyas of yore wrote down what they thought was right
3. if you approach vedanta from a logical point of view , accepting all Upanishadic texts and the Gita as equally valid then you will land in Visishtaadvaita (which is logically consistent as far as its relation to the principal triad and its philosophy go). if you try to practice interpretative gymnastics you will arrive at any other vednatic position.
4. I am not asserting this as a dogmatic opinion, please check out all the texts, try to reconcile them and then come back for the debate.
5. just because one would like to make hinduism (which is a politico-religious myth and not a real religion) sound better than other systems one cannot accept a flawed concept like Jivanmukthi (viz attainment of an infinite consciousness when conditioned by a finite body) I can construct logical arguments against this concept anytime (again thanks to Ramanuja).
6. I did not mean hell or heaven or some crap like that which I do not believe in ... I was referring to attainment of Brahman (the terms Vaikuntham etc reflect my version of attaining Brahman, if you do not agree with this fine.)
7. Narayana is not a stickler for rules but you must first understand whether this desire for jivan mukthi has come from Him (hardly likely) or from yourself , based upon your knowledge of the scriptures or spiritual issues. it is likely that you read about the jivan mukthi of so many swamijis (whose experience might have been some form of samadhi understood as Jivan Mukthi) and wanted it cause it sounds likr the only true path.
8. as a humble Vaishnava I can only say that for someone who follows Ramanuja sampradaaya the idea of expecting a spiritual summumm bonum is not too great as in the Vishnu Sahasranama Narayana is referred to as Maarga: the path and he is the destination as well.
therefore for someone who has his \her devotion firmly set on SRIMAN NARAYANA , there can be no other goal.
such was the bhakti of the aazhvaars and the Pushti marga of sriVallabhacharya is another example, plesase consider some of those instead of trying for jivan mukthi just cause it seems extraordinary.
as for your opinions on marriage I have no issues with anybody's decisions (ARJUNA, NEENGA MATTUM , THANIYAA IDHAI PATHI SINDHICCHIRUNDHA IVVALAVU DEBATE VANDHIRUKKAADHU! LOL)

If you ask me why it must exist I USE YOUR OWN STATEMENTS AT THE BEGINNING OF THIS DEBATE THAT IT IS AN INSTITUTION THAT HAS EVOLVED FROM SCRATCH AND THAT IT IS A BEAUTIFUL THING IF ONLY CARRIED OUT CORRECTLY.
IF SOMEONE WANTS TO MARRY - LET HIM\HER DO SO
OTHERWISE I am not going to argue with such people
likewise if someone wants to stay alone , like Krishna has been suggesting, that's fine, but don't question the institution of marriage just because lotsa people have messed it up.
asfor your question on death... I am not sure you understood things correctly... our dying is in accordance with karma and Kaala. spontaneous death is an absurdity at best.
I am not aksing you to lead a good life here cos it'll help you in the hereafter.
I'm advocating harmonious living as it is in itself a spiritual sadhana and if done with detachment - nothing is better.
besides when Narayana is the Marga and also the objective to be realised where are you going?
MAYBE ONE COULD ASPIRE FOR THE STATE WHEN ONE SEES CLEARLY AND SAYS; VASUDEVA: SARVAM ITI!

SARVAM SRIKRISHNAARPANAMASTHU!

 
At October 20, 2005 3:18 PM, Blogger Parvati said...

@anand: If abundant life power could be incorporated into life less matter,into tamasic body, if the infinite-amplitudes-spanning boundless mind can be accomodated into this bounded physical bodily substance of the brain - when all these "flawed concepts" have not only been conceived of by the Supreme Consciousness, but have actually been executed by It, where is the impossibility you speak of - why is the attainment of the Infinite Consciousness when conditioned in a finite body a flawed concept and an impossibility?

Do you think it is my desire or a human being's paltry desire that brought about all these flawed concepts and impossibilities of active life in dead matter, unimaginable intelligence in an inertia filled-body, into fruition? It was the Supreme Divine's will that did that. Whether you call HIm Narayana or Supreme Lord, or the Supreme Consciousness Force Shakti, or Lord Shiva, it is That which has established not just in one human being but a whole species like that.

It is not my desire coming from a petty personality - that has puny desires like lets have some gulab jamuns today.

It is the Supreme intent of the Supreme that evolution of consciousness will happen on earth - it wont stop with mind, but its aim is to keep on harmonising and incorporatin and balancing ever more newer levels of consciousness IN THE BODY, AND THE ULTIMATE OF THIS INCORPORISATION WILL BE WHAT YOU CALL AN IMPOSSIBILITY, of Jivan Mukti - AND WHAT I SAY IS PERFECTLY LOGICAL considering what has been happening till now.

So, my aspiration stays. And when I become a Jivan Mukti I will blog you, with an embossed invite!

The rest of it is ok. But this mattered a lot to me. Hence another long comment...

 
At October 20, 2005 3:51 PM, Blogger Parvati said...

INCORPORISATION??!! SORRY. PUT INCORPORATING INSTEAD.

 
At October 20, 2005 7:28 PM, Blogger Aatma said...

Wow a staggering 93 comments ahead of me - looks like a super dooper hit Blog - And a lot of serious discussion.

I feel every marriage is a unique experience - no two marriages can be alike. We cannot say that so and so's marriage works then it will work for me or it doesn't work then it will not work for me. Similarly being lonely - some people like it - some people don't. For instance I don't.

And whether one wants to get married or stay single is purely one's choice. According to me which one is better than the other is purely futile discussion.

 
At October 20, 2005 9:53 PM, Blogger Arjuna_Speaks said...

Aatma - I was expecting u - and now only u come :( - the show is almost nearing its end :))

 
At October 21, 2005 3:40 AM, Blogger Arjuna_Speaks said...

Krishna - a question to u? What happens if everyone in this world wants to become a brahmachari? I suddenly got this question :)

 
At October 21, 2005 5:06 AM, Blogger Narayanan Venkitu said...

Parvathi,
You are right in saying 'Take the marriage easy' I like your thoughts on that.

The question here is ...why Marry??

You had brought the point of our parents / Grandparents ? Did they really stay married cause the wanted to?? Can they touch their hearts and say that they loved their married life..!!

IMHO, Our Grand parents and parents were never allowed to analyze the marriages..and they passed it on to us...( no abuses here)..and here we are debating the issue.!!.

 
At October 21, 2005 5:24 AM, Blogger Anand Ramamoorthy said...

Arjuna,
I thought I could leave things alone...but you know..

Parvati,

the divine never created anyhting..can you tell me how on earth the body is tamasic (none of the gunas are in isolation according to sankhya as you must be knowing) ...
I do not accept creation and as for as life and intelligence are concerned they have evolved and I will accept nothing unscientific as far as life and consciousnessa re concerned. many long-held notions about Karma and bondage of Jivas need to be discussed in the light of modern cosmology.
the world has ParaBrahman for its cause but not for any reason - it is NARAYANA'S leelavibhuthi - I m not even going to bother arguing over this as this will be apparent to you only if you observe the world - instead of rushing at all the intellectual red rags waved by others.

your way of interpreting my argument that Jivan Mukthi is logically inconsistent appears to involve your own emotional commitment to your self-styled program of liberation-while -alive..
btw,
I will be happy if you pull it off but surely I will not say " I told you so" when you realise that Jivan Mukthi is a flawed construct - at best Kaivalya is possible but still Moksha requires the final separation from the body,
the arguments you have used to try and refute me - please see them , are they logically admissible, what you are citing - the emergence of life etc can be acounted for in a logically admissible manner- can you do the same for your ideas -
or are you going to opt for the usual cop-out that it is suprasensual and therefore beyond logical discussion-
if thatis the argument you adopt then I can ask you how you will know a suprasensual-subjective experience as such and such as it will be indescribable, all descriptions being fundamentally flawed- what do you hope to prove, ..

anyway all the best for your endeavours,

SARVAM SRIKRISHNAARPANAMASTHU!

 
At October 21, 2005 6:02 AM, Blogger Parvati said...

@N.V: Why did a concept like marriage come into being at all, millions of years ago? Not just in one country or region but in the whole psyche and consciousness of men all over the earth?

It is because of human nature. Let's go with your fascination with no-marriage but just living together, and start from there.

Think of two people not married but living together. What are the ideal ingredients of such a situation? Put the whole list in one box (the list will contain a million things, each person's expectations varying from the other).

A list prepared by every human being living on earth - "what do I need from a live-in relationship, from my partner, from the whole situation".

Let's put all those billion lists in one box. Study them, get a market researcher's analyst to collate the data. Lets assume that the top 1000 list-items are put in a box. That box is called marriage.

All this has been done unconsciously by every human society, in the mind itself and the box of marriage has been institutionalised.

Institutionalising something has its merits and demerits, so is it with marriage too, education too, Parent-children relationships too.

Merits: These institutions are the known devils. No pleasant surprises, but more importantly no unpleasant shocks. The very word institution means "SECURITY/ FOREVER"

Demerits: They are quite airtight and stifling if you have completely grown out of them.

Merits: You can take for granted the nature of the institution and know that you will definitely get all these things from the institution. In our box of marriage example, instead of living together, when 2 people marry, they automatically ENJOY THE RIGHT TO THE 1000 THINGS IN THE BOX. It is an assurance by law, by society, by the whole emotional and psychological net inside human beings.

But if the couple does not innovatively grow, they will be in a prison of 1000-things-marriage-box; same problem if one grows and the other doesnt.

BUT THE ASSURANCE AND SECURITY IS THAT THEY WILL GET THE THOUSAND THINGS MINIMUM FROM THE BOX. That seems to be the attraction that the institution of marriage has to people.

Demerits: Now what about the list of expectations that didnt make to the marriage box. What if I have all those needs, which an airtight marriage doesnt give me? Then your fate and happiness belongs entirely in the hands of your partner. Whether in the marriage the partner is your wife or otherwise as in a live-in relationship.

For Indians especially, marriage is truly like a honeycomb aluminium fence cutting across their whole personality vertically. They will feel restless, listless, uncertain, stupid, very very lonely without marriage. I think westerners are breaking out of the need for marriage. But most probably every human being likes sensible/loving/intelligent/understanding companion with or without marriage.

You still havent answered my qs to you, as to what do you think you will get by not being in marriage that you have missed by being in it? Since you said that your wife also thinks like you, what led both of you to say "never marriage again".

I cannot think of anything except the freedom to have successively several partners, without having to go through a divorce. This might seriously affect the selfesteem and self worth of an Indian to whom such behaviour which is a part of societal behaviour in the west, completely characterless and immoral.

I frankly cannot think of anything else.

In short (!?), marriage is an extremely powerful stabilising factor. Stability, security are also words you can use to describe a prison. So you have to decide on how to take the gold and leave the dross of marriage.

2. As to parents, grandparents they took life easy. We are obsessed with our children, and still todays kids end up with a million problems than the children of our or the previous generations. Did not our parents treat us with practically no obsession at all, no pampering or this cloying treatment of children, children,children - did we not grow up as balanced adults. Nowadays, children here are so self-centered it is preposterous. They behave like husbands whose every whim and fancy is looked into.

All this to say, if we have a gentle light touch where marriage is concerned, where children are concerned, somehow, we retain our balance and are able to see things in perspective.

When we make too much of something, the opposite extreme happens. They dont need such intense deep scrutiny. Let the marriage happen, be - is mutual respect and love so very difficult towards an educated, affectionate person with whom we have a lifetime of sharing, and many more years of it?

There. Let me breathe some.

 
At October 21, 2005 6:46 AM, Blogger Parvati said...

@anand: Creation is a way of speaking about all that we see today. Since I too am a strong propounder of the evolution theory, I neednt quibble over that

1. Evolution of mental man from initial inanimate matter just stone and water, to an amoeba to a hydra, earthworm, what is the sequence of species?- worms, arthropods,fish, amphibians,birds, reptiles, mammals and Man.

Do you accept that?

Tell me what has evolved from the lowest in the list to the highest?

I think it is consciousness that has evolved. Dont you see it - the self- and other- consciousness in man is higher than that in an amoeba? And with increase and evolution of consciousness, there is automatically an increase in the power over oneself and the environment too. And for consciousness to come out of something, it has to be initially present inside matter first.

Is it consistent with your Knowledge and experience or belief and deductions from what you know or have read, that the Divine is in each and every thing?

If not I cannot proceed further.

If you think/believe/know/deduced that the Supreme Narayana is in every cell/atom of everything in this world and the other worlds, in the texture of our emotions as in our power of action, as in our thoughts and the strength of our mind, then , if He has chosen to inhabit this body, these senses, this mind all of which are full of innumerable flaws, and weakness, but nevertheless, in His Leela (as you call it), He has nevertheless with great compassion and Grace, has chosen to inhabit all this we see, THAT IS WHAT WILL ENABLE ME TO DIVINISE MY BODY TOO, THE INFINITE DIVINE IN ME WILL ENABLE ME TO EXPERIENCE THE SUPREME DIVINITY AND I CAN BECOME A JIVAN MUKTI.

What is the difference between the Supreme in me now, and when I will be a Jivan Mukti - it is that what I am unconscious of now, what I only vaguely realise and only believe now, I will consciously know and live it.

Otherwise all the talk of Lila might be enjoyable to Lord Vishnu, but to me with my diabetes and heart trouble, and AIDS it is pure horror.

IF THERE IS NO BETTERMENT OF LIFE IN THE BODY, OF THE BODY'S CONSTITUTION ITSELF, and not only that, if there is not even a hope of it, I might as well die today.

If there is going to be no liberation in the Infinite possible for the body, mind and life - then what are we even talking about?

Liberation is for someone in a prison. Not for someone or something totally free and infinite.

The body is the one thing that needs liberation from death, disease, aging you name it.

And if as you say that will never be and if you are right then what is there to speak.

On the contrary, if as I say the the tiny liberation brought to the body by means of the evolution of the mental consciousness on earth, is any indication (through medical science), I suspect and infer that through the same process of evolution the Divinity inside every cell, who is also infinite, will also evolve from inside us, and manifest the infinity.

And if Narayana is the way and the goal, and there is nothing but only His Play, I think that He is more intelligent than me to allow such a stupid painful cruel play to continue for ever, without any denouement.

This going round and round will stop not with our perpetual dying. But by His arranging the play in such a manner that when on earth, there is immortality, infinity and omnipotence.

What does the earth care for something that will leave it in the clutches of permanent sorrow and suffering?

I have not seen any cruelty in God. And I see all this as phase leading to a conscious manifestation of the Supreme in matter and in man.

 
At October 21, 2005 7:57 AM, Blogger Anand Ramamoorthy said...

Arjuna,
here goes...
Parvati,
I didn't mean to sound inconsiderate or anything and most people are likely to cite the state of affairs in the world to ask how this can be the lila of a compassionate lord...
it runs deeper than that... morals and happiness\suffering in black and white cannot be relied upon while discussing this..
I agree with you on the first few points you have mentioned .... Narayana is present in everything and everyone ... to see this (not just see this but to see nothing else other than Narayana in everything and everythingas co-ordinately predicated to him as His effects) is the highest state attainable by any of us ... if you call this Jivanmukthi then fine... however if you are referring to the erroneous notion of liberation-while alive (according to which an embodied being is absorbed in consciousness of Nirguna Brahman while still inhabiting a body) I may have to furhter this argument...
however now that you say you have these conditions( I know how diabetes is like - seen too many people with it, and as for heart trouble that too) I think it would be inhuman on my part to cause any agitation in your mind. I am not responding any further on this topic.
please accept my aplogies and go ahead with whatever you have in mind. May Narayana be with you

SARVAM SRIKRISHNAARPANAMASTHU!

 
At October 21, 2005 8:41 AM, Blogger Arjuna_Speaks said...

Anand: First of all I am quite sure Parvati is just generalizing the diseases of mankind.

Infact Moksha can be attained while living itself. Moksha = Moha + Shyamam i.e When the delusion is won = u attain Moksha. The only problem is the definition of Moha. From the dvaitin point of view Moha+shyam could be the victory of sense pleasures to focus our thoughts on the Lord and from the advaitin point of view Moha+shyam could be the victory over the sense of Ego - the realization that we are not the body but the Atman in its Pure form.

 
At October 21, 2005 9:38 AM, Blogger Anand Ramamoorthy said...

Arjuna,
I took it to mean a real condition ...maybe it is as you say.. that's for the diseases of mankind..

now coming to moksha-
you say from the advaitin's point of view it is the realisation that the self is the Atman (in this case you take it to mean the same as the Brahman)...
this is merely inflating the ego to the proportions of mistakenly assuming that you are Brahman.
true victory over ego can occur only when Prapatti is performed (if you have doubts check out Srimad Rahasyatrayasara of SWAMI DESIKA).
your exegetical skills can hardly make up for the logical inconsistences in the philosophy which you put forth when you speak of Moksha then and there (fast food maadhiriya?) besides the whole issue over the types of Brahman (Nirguna\Saguna ) etc is so simple, one only has to read all texts giving the same weight to all of them.
to say that abheda shruthis carry more force (and that Visishtaadvaita is a stage in spiritual evolution) will be interpretative high-handedness.
such traits are always visible in advaitic compositions, for the views there are constructed out of one set of ideas without an equal representation for another.
the concept of Adhikaaribheda is also used I presume to say that different upanishadic texts teach different things to different people depending on their competencies...what kind of conceptual gymnastics is this?
if this concept is valid then the Buddhist's refutation of scriptural testimony and JK's dismissal of authorities will be equally valid...
one might as well be an agnostic as the prima facie view in Mainstream Vedanta (i.e advaita) happens to be implicit atheism anyway.
however Narayana's samkalpa alone is responsible for deciding the thing we call moksha and other terms ....besides the Pancharatra system is acceptable despite all the arguments advanced against the Chaturvyuha concept.
debates are endless.. it is intellectually intoxicating to think that one is Brahman - that is all. there is no denying the fact that Brahman is one without a second... however Jivas are relationally identical to Brahman and in their pure state exist in Brahman. the unitariness of things still holds as if Brahman were not nothing will be, therefore as the Brahman is the cause all effects are from it only and have a relation based unity with Brahman.
the goal of life is to attain the knowledge of the self as different from the body but also subservient to Brahman (as elucidated by Ramanuja in the SriBashya).
the self is also a Knower and retains the Iness even during final release.
SARVAM SRIKRISHNAARPANAMASTHU!

 
At October 21, 2005 10:30 AM, Blogger Parvati said...

@anand, arjuna is right - I was generalising about the diseases. I am not a patient. Not yet anyway!Empathy and sympathy with their suffering, and hence the mention. I am fine and healthy so you can continue your gentle (as a whiplash) battery of googlies at poor me!

Between the three of you (Viji, arjuna and you) you will first make me a 67 year old lady, then besides the age, you will also saddle me with diabetes, heart disease, a poor soul just a foot away from her death bed!

Very funny actually...

Anyway, Anand, for me the words of the Gita are the supreme guidance. I will tell you why. Till now you have been speaking about the Nirguna Brahman as the Infinite; and I have been speaking of Purushothama as the Infinite - the Purushottama who is above the saguna and the nirguna. Sri Krishna the Purushottama of the Gita is the Supreme Person beyond the Impersonality and Personality.

Can a Supreme Purushottama completely manifest in the Human body? Can you accept that?

So why do you think these Avatars are keeping on coming on Earth time and again. Isnt it to make the Earth a better place, purely for our sakes? And with that agenda in mind why cannot He have the agenda of immortality for us? Does He want us to suffer for ever? In any way at all?

And so long as death of the body is there is there any good news worth its name here?
And please dont even speak about Karma. Man's karma howsoever terrible doesnt have the power to create Death.There has been death even before man. I am questioning the very need for the principle of suffering.

Let the Lord whose Lila is everything take the responsibility to remedy the situation. We can keep quiet and be led by Him. He will and He does which all of us have experienced so many times.

You know Anand, I think I am really stupid (now try and disagree with me on this statement!). In all that you write, the one thing that strikes me again and again are the words "SARVAM SRIKRISHNAARPANAMASTHU", and I feel that with a person like you who loves Him as much as you do, I have no issues to settle at all.

Sri Krishna is everything and He says to Arjuna " Become my-minded, devoted to Me, to Me do sacrifice and adoration; infallibly, thou shalt come to Me, for dear to Me art thou. Abandoning all laws of conduct seek refuge in Me alone. I will deliver thee from all sin and evil; do not grieve."

I am sure that we both agree that we should completely surrender to Krishna and let Him do as He will?

So we will do just that?

That being the case, and with your nascent compassion for me, because of my imaginary diseases, I will hold the white flag of peace.

I think poor Arjuna should be given back his blog-space from now on.

 
At October 21, 2005 10:38 AM, Blogger Anand Ramamoorthy said...

Parvati,

Fine.... as a suitable conclusion to this debate:


SARVAM SRIKRISHNAARPANAMASTHU!

 
At October 21, 2005 2:30 PM, Blogger Parvati said...

@anand: Splendid!

SARVAM SRIKRISHNAARPANAMASTHU.

 
At October 22, 2005 2:25 AM, Blogger krishna said...

"Become my-minded, devoted to Me, to Me do sacrifice and adoration; infallibly, thou shalt come to Me, for dear to Me art thou. Abandoning all laws of conduct seek refuge in Me alone. I will deliver thee from all sin and evil; do not grieve.""

Nice lines to conclude this debate...:)

this is something the great bhaktas like annamaya, tyagayya, purandaradasa ,bhadrachala ramadasa of the lore did.
The question are to what extent can we be like them??
and
would it be rational to emulate them???

I guess the only thing we can do is pray him to give us that kind of bhakthi

 
At October 22, 2005 5:17 AM, Blogger Parvati said...

@Krishna: It is a very peculiar thing, Krishna, that there are two seemingly contradictory facts in our Sadhana.

1. We really do feel that we are separate from Sri Krishna. I mean that is very clear - each of us knows himself as Krishna or Anand or Parvati etc. WE DEFINITELY DO NOT HAVE THE EXPERIENCE THAT WE ARE SRI KRISHNA HIMSELF. Do we?

2. The other fact or Truth is that Sri Krishna is EVERYTHING. He is the sadhaka, He is the sadhana, He is the power that enables the Sadhaka do the difficult Sadhana, He is also as we all know The Goal of the sadhana. As Anand (his name all alone like that, seems all wrong - I am compelled and tempted to add a "HIS ROYAL HIGHNESS", every time I take his name!), anyway as HRH Anand keeps reiterating time and again, All is Narayana, He is the Way, He is the Goal, He is everything.

If you concentrate on this second fact, meditate on it, accept it, pray to Him (as you say), that you be able to live it, you will see that inside you revolutionary changes of consciousness happen. You actually not only just 'believe' mentally that All is Sri Krishna, you actually start living Him.

Slowly, in pieces maybe, or overwhelmingly and simply complete. But IT WILL DEFINITELY HAPPEN.

This way, the distance between the first fact of our separateness from the Lord Sri Krishna, and the second fact of His Being Everythin and the 'All', keeps on getting shorter and shorter. And you just live Him happily, quietly or speaking a lot, doing this work or some other - BUT YOU WILL BE LIVING HIM. Then you will truly understand that there is no goal, no way, no sadhana, no effort, no sadhaka nothing except Sriman Narayana. And that would be that.

I find Him quite amazing and beautiful and lovely. And the whole scheme of things is very interesting, I think..

But I still have my reservations about pain, suffering, disease and decay not only of the body, but also of the life and mind.

I have this score to settle with Him, but that is my small self speaking!

 
At October 22, 2005 5:56 AM, Blogger Viji said...

Parvati- Hey, when did we (as in me, Arjuna and Anand) make you a 67 year old lady?? It was all your doing !! :))

 
At October 22, 2005 6:40 AM, Blogger Parvati said...

@Viji: Hi! Been absent for a long time! Got my email to you?

I was joking about going to Harvard medical school at 67, and Madam and Arjuna did not even see that I was joking and seriously took it from there!

It was all your doing. I just lied as a joke.

Anand of course dumped diabetes and heart disease, which I was quoting to prove a point.

 
At October 22, 2005 6:41 AM, Blogger krishna said...

@ parvati ji

yes, I think by means of bhakthi and prapatti , it is easier to realize "MORE OF HIM IN US " than "MORE OF WHAT WE THINK WE ARE CURRENTLY" . Then only , the ego , which is the cause for all kinds of problems, starts to vanish.

 
At October 22, 2005 6:42 AM, Blogger Arjuna_Speaks said...

Parvati: Viji is the cause of all causes :))

 
At October 22, 2005 6:59 AM, Blogger Viji said...

Arjuna- *like vadivelu in winner* Vaendam...
Parvati- Yeah, I've replied to it.

 

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